Nut Problem

[zrob]

Have an 07 650C, a truly beautiful guitar, however it arrived with a few problems. Although the fit and finish were perfect, the intonation was way off and something else really bothered my ears.

I set out to solve the bad intonation by straightening the neck. That was easy and brought the intonation within reason on 5 of the strings. I adjusted the saddles and found all except the G played in tune. But oh that G string! It had a buzz as well as a muffled sustain, plus, a weird harmonic ring. And, no matter where I set the saddle, if the G was in tune at open, fretted at the twelfth fret and the midway harmonic, it would play very sharp at the first, second and third frets. I set out to remove the buzz. The 650 fretboard has a 10" crown radius but the saddles were all low and parallel. I adjusted them all to set the string height to specs. Still the G buzz remained. I replaced the G (which I was told was an Elixir .017) with a new Cleartone .017; this solved the intonation problem, but as you may guess, the weird sounds remained.

I set out to once and for all find that buzz. I plucked, pressed, pinched, etc. Nothing stopped it. So, I put an aquarium air tube in my ear and listened. The buzz didn't emit from the fretboard, the pups or the bridge. In fact, I still can't find it, but I discovered that the G string is the only string that emits a tone above the nut when struk at the pickups. By that I mean between the nut and tuner. It must be the nut is cut too loose at the G.

Anyone else come across this?

650Nut1.jpg

650Nut2.jpg

To isolate the problem I tried shimming the G string with foil and that helped a lot. I'm thinking the notch will have to be filled and re-cut. Any ideas, tips or expertize will be appreciated. I'm sure I can fill the notch, but I don't have the tool to cut a new one. Of course, there is always the local luthier.

-Bob

[jingle_jangle]

Definitely a problem with your nut (so to speak). These are tough to track down, unless you've heard a few and know exactly where to go. It occurs when the high spot on the nut (the miniscule speck o' nut bottom that supports the string) is not the furthest edge forward on the nut, and the strign rattles against the front edge of the nut slot. It's more a weird harmonic than anything else, and often can't be heard once amplified . But it can be annoying.

Have the nut re-filed, to move that sweet spot forward (toward the business end). In an extreme case, replace the nut and check again.

This is often remedied by switching to a heavier gauge string. Are you running .008s or .009s, by any chance? Use .010s and see the improvement.

[zrob]

Thank you Paul for coming back with this information so quickly. I had already sent the photos and hypothesis to my luthier. He called me this morning and I passed along your suspicion; he agreed completely that the nut slot angle is the most like source of the crazy noises. He apologetically informed me of his minimum bench charge for tracking down such problems (which only makes sense) but will apply it towards any work he does (more than fair). Unless the notch is too wide, I believe dressing the notch with a nut file will solve the problem. I'll have him do this as part of a full set-up. After all, there's a lot more to making a guitar sound right than just practice.

As for the string size, I am using Cleartone .010s.

650C 1.jpg

Although I never thought I'd say this, but who (besides our female veterinarian) knew that nuts could be the cause of so many problems.

The work will be done Thursday and I'll post the results.

-Bob

[johnallg]

Very nice maple there, Bob!

[elysrand]

After all, there's a lot more to making a guitar sound right than just practice.

At least 50% or more of the heart and soul of a guitar is in the setup. With a set of RIC 10s, and a leveled nut, a properly-flattened neck profile, and the right spacing of the strings at the bridge and above the pole pieces of the pickups, even a clunker can take on an angelic aspect. A good luthier like yours, or even better a true Extreme Artisan like Paul Wilczynski, can make her better than you ever thought possible, Bob!

I just bought a 650C myself, and it is being shipped right now. When it arrives, I will get her set up just right as a first order of business.... and I will be eagerly awaiting your posted results too

[zrob]

Elys, I took your advice and have a setup appt. for next week. While my luthier is familiar with Rics, he works on everything. His is a certified Martin warranty station. Is there anything Ric specific I should have him consider? And what tasks should I expect him to perform for "$90-$120 with no fret work?" Anything with the electronics?

Elys, I looked back and found the thread where you bought your 650C FG. Love that color and nice mods too!

650C 2.jpg

John, thought I'd include a close-up for you. I shopped a long time for a JG but got this one, just couldn't pass up the 3-D grain.

I'll post a report on the outcome in about a week. Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

One more thing: Does anyone else use Big Bends Nut sauce? Good idea? No?

-Bob

[jps]

...what tasks should I expect him to perform for "$90-$120 with no fret work?"-Bob

Hmm, $90-$120? Just to use a couple of small files for the nut and to tweak some bridge screws and truss rod nuts? I'm in the wrong business

[jingle_jangle]

$750.00 for one 30 X 40" exhibition-quality print, rewashed and refixed, with selenium toning and Sistan treatment?

He's in the wrong business!

[johnallg]

Really beautiful. Bob. Thanks!

[jps]

$750.00 for one 30 X 40" exhibition-quality print, rewashed and refixed, with selenium toning and Sistan treatment?

He's in the wrong business!

Based on my experience, the setup job is a LOT EASIER TO DO.

[ken_j]

Elys wrote:

I just bought a 650C myself, and it is being shipped right now. When it arrives, I will get her set up just right as a first order of business....

The set up has always seemed fine to me. I did adjust the neck a few times over the last two years and this may need to be done once again when you get it normalized to your climate. I doubt that the nut will need any filing. Intonation was set with my Peterson 490 strobe.

[zrob]

I'm sure everyone's been waiting the 9 months to find out how this turned out.

I found a luthier from Oceanside, CA, who tows his shop behind his truck; we arranged to meet at a local guitar shop. What a great getup he has: Roughly a 6X10' trailer with sanders, saws, a jointer, and just about everything you'd need to do repairs. The trailer was well lit, had power supplied by a very quiet generator outside, and a large fan that shuttled cool air through the workspace. I handed Jim my still pristine 650c and watched from the door as he laid it on a clean pad and began the diagnosis portion of the setup.

Within 30 seconds he confirmed Paul's suspicion of a poorly filed nut slot. He noted that the G string was riding on the wrong (tuner) side of the nut. This, he said, was not only responsible for the weird harmonic, but was also the reason that the G would not intonate. He explained (what seems so obvious now) that the nut edge, the business side that is, is intended to be a specific distance from each fret, and that if the string is riding on anything but the very edge of the fretboard side of the nut, intonation will be impossible. He cut off the strings (asking first), restrung the guitar with the provided set of Cleartone 10s and explained that he will work in a somewhat circular pattern of truss adjustments, string height, intonation, nut filing and so on until everything is just so.

He brought the strings up to tension and noticed I had the neck perfectly straight. He adjusted the rods to allow a tiny bit of relief. I smiled when he said that these neck-thru (Rickenbacker) guitars are so strong that double truss-rods are overkill. He then worked on the string height, measuring at the 14th fret (iirc). He did quite a bit of filing as a couple of the nut slots were pinching and/or high, and he was able to rectify the reverse angle of the G slot without lowering the height too much. Then he did some intonation work, some small adjustment again on the rods, a bit more on the saddle height, and finally finished up the intonation with an old Peterson strobe.

About an hour and ten minutes, including indulging me with my questions. Fifty bucks; what a deal!

The guitar that I could only look at, now plays like a champ. The 650c has its own warm and quiet qualities thanks to the HBs, and the strings now sing in unison. And that G is no longer the ugly duckling.

[beatlefreak]

Glad to hear you got this worked out, Bob.

[jingle_jangle]

I'm sure everyone's been waiting the 9 months to find out how this turned out.

I found a luthier from Oceanside, CA, who tows his shop behind his truck; we arranged to meet at a local guitar shop. What a great getup he has: Roughly a 6X10' trailer with sanders, saws, a jointer, and just about everything you'd need to do repairs. The trailer was well lit, had power supplied by a very quiet generator outside, and a large fan that shuttled cool air through the workspace. I handed Jim my still pristine 650c and watched from the door as he laid it on a clean pad and began the diagnosis portion of the setup.

Within 30 seconds he confirmed Paul's suspicion of a poorly filed nut slot. He noted that the G string was riding on the wrong (tuner) side of the nut. This, he said, was not only responsible for the weird harmonic, but was also the reason that the G would not intonate. He explained (what seems so obvious now) that the nut edge, the business side that is, is intended to be a specific distance from each fret, and that if the string is riding on anything but the very edge of the fretboard side of the nut, intonation will be impossible. He cut off the strings (asking first), restrung the guitar with the provided set of Cleartone 10s and explained that he will work in a somewhat circular pattern of truss adjustments, string height, intonation, nut filing and so on until everything is just so.

He brought the strings up to tension and noticed I had the neck perfectly straight. He adjusted the rods to allow a tiny bit of relief. I smiled when he said that these neck-thru (Rickenbacker) guitars are so strong that double truss-rods are overkill. He then worked on the string height, measuring at the 14th fret (iirc). He did quite a bit of filing as a couple of the nut slots were pinching and/or high, and he was able to rectify the reverse angle of the G slot without lowering the height too much. Then he did some intonation work, some small adjustment again on the rods, a bit more on the saddle height, and finally finished up the intonation with an old Peterson strobe.

About an hour and ten minutes, including indulging me with my questions. Fifty bucks; what a deal!

The guitar that I could only look at, now plays like a champ. The 650c has its own warm and quiet qualities thanks to the HBs, and the strings now sing in unison. And that G is no longer the ugly duckling.

Sounds like this repair guy has the building code and rent thing solved in a unique way!

Most non-Rick specialists will put relief into a Rick neck...it's what the've learned to do by rote and habit. Unnecessary. Otherwise, sounds like a good guy who knew what he was doing.

Crafty, I guess I'd say!

[zrob]

Glad to hear you got this worked out, Bob.

Thank you Kris. It's silly to leave a beautiful instrument in its case merely for want of a proper setup. I realize I was a bit tardy in tending to this. I do have excuses; some are even reasonable: My original luthier wanted a diagnosis fee, then never called back with an appointment (wonder what I did to him???) Then I started thinking about the steep fee (up to $120) to do an hour's work. I tried to make the guitar playable but if the nut is the problem, and you don't have nut-files, all the saddle height, intonation and truss adjustments in the world won't help.

It's funny, when I got the 650, it was like getting a beautiful child with a slight dental malocclusion. Then, after deciding my Craftsman plumbing tools, along with a little horse sense, can handle the job, I handed the orthodontist what appeared to be an inbred hillbilly tyke with teeth every which-a-way. Thankfully, Jim didn't snicker at my efforts.

Yes, it took a little long to get around to this, but for me 9 months is almost instantaneous. In 74 I bought a new ES-335 which still desperately needs its initial setup. Now that IS inexcusable!

Sounds like this repair guy has the building code and rent thing solved in a unique way!

Most non-Rick specialists will put relief into a Rick neck...it's what the've learned to do by rote and habit. Unnecessary. Otherwise, sounds like a good guy who knew what he was doing.

Crafty, I guess I'd say!

Hey Paul, looks like you hit another nail on the head; thanks for lending some wisdom as I'm sure it helped in the respect department with this luthier. As for the relief issue, I did mention that John Hall states that his guitars are designed to allow for an absolutely straight neck. The luthier said that that goes against his understanding of how these things work (iirc). He explained that strings vibrate not just up and down, but in a circular motion, and there needs to be relief to eliminate buzzing where the motion is the greatest (at the center). At least that is how I recall his explanation. I didn't want to get into a pissing contest with a guy who makes his living at this. However, in the end I'm sure he got my message as the relief is almost non-existent.

As for his unique address, when I complimented him on his reasonable price, he said his overhead, or lack there of, allows him to pass along savings. He was a straight-up guy, skilled and unpretentious; a nice combination.

Hope to meet you one day, Paul. Thanks again.