Last night was my first "date" with my 660-12 MB aquired from Paul Boyer and played with a Janglebox, sent by Tom Eisenmenger.Thanks to both board members for flawless purchases.
All went well, and now "Monty" is my daily driver;the 370-12RM is now retired from gigs.
First date
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Re: First date
Don: When you get a moment, I would be most interested in comparisons that you could make with regard to the tonality and playability of both of these great 12 strings.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Re: First date
I'm not sure how well I'll do and it will be a bit like eating an elephant,but I'll start with the neck spacing: I like the 660 better as I have thick fingers and have always had a little trouble with the RM,specifically open chords and low neck melodies.But when I'd flub or muffle a note , I was usually the only one who noticed.Everything that I could play on the RM , I can play on the 660 but just a bit easier.Replacing the nut on the RM is not an option as it must remain stock. 
Re: First date
And now for another bite of elephant: as to wearing either guitar, so far I like the feel of the RM better,it's more comfortable, but that opinion may change as the RM has been mine since birth, and the 660 is still a newie.The RM, and my new 360 MID just fit me right.The 660 doesn't quite fit as well, or I just haven't yet got it to hang where it should.
BUT! it's still my daily driver due to the neck and other reasons.
BUT! it's still my daily driver due to the neck and other reasons.
Re: First date
Now that I'm back from the holiday trip,it's time to discuss the pickups.They both have toasters on them, but don't seem to be the same type.The RM was made in '88, so they're the linear wound type, of a higher impedance.Most likely the ones that garnered complaints of a harsh brittle sound, and were unwound by some users.Played dry, it doesn't really jangle,and string changes didn't help.The best strings for that use IMHO are the Ric compressed round wounds like it came with.However, those don't sound right when playing it wet;the compressor makes it sound, for lack of a better description, nasaly or twangy. Not a good jangle.So, when I read about Pyramids being good for the jangle(and used by the master himself)I was quick to try them.They brought the jangle out,but were harder on the neck, and also the fingers.So the final answer to that, was to find lighter, more supple flats.And, that wasn't as easy as just going to GC for a set.
Now to the 660-12(which I've named Monty). That boy also has toasters, but probably has newer scatterwound pickups.Those have a smoother, more even sound to them, and it has some jangle even played without compression.I could probably play it and sound close, by upping the treble some more.Played thru a janglebox, it just nails "the sound"and does so with the round wounds it came with.I haven't yet put flats on it, and I probably won't.Time(and boredom) will tell.
I dare say, if the RM was just a run of the mill Ric, I'd consider installing a scatterwound or three on it.But NO, it'll remain bone stock as long as I have it.
Now to the 660-12(which I've named Monty). That boy also has toasters, but probably has newer scatterwound pickups.Those have a smoother, more even sound to them, and it has some jangle even played without compression.I could probably play it and sound close, by upping the treble some more.Played thru a janglebox, it just nails "the sound"and does so with the round wounds it came with.I haven't yet put flats on it, and I probably won't.Time(and boredom) will tell.
I dare say, if the RM was just a run of the mill Ric, I'd consider installing a scatterwound or three on it.But NO, it'll remain bone stock as long as I have it.
Re: First date
And now on to the compression devices..the built in unit vs. the Janglebox.
The only way to compare is with the RM and it was a rather easy comparison but took some time to do.The RM has 3 tonal settings in the rotary switch, and each also can be accessed with and without compression.So, there's a total of 6 presets, 6 switch positions.That's it for user selections.Likewise, the Janglebox has 3 tonal positions selected by a small toggle switch.They're marked Dark,Normal, and Bright.There's a foot switch for on/off, so with the JB, there's really only 4 presets.
That is really no big deal, as the little bit the RM got played dry, it was on the bright spot.
Now to playing the RM dry, but thru the Janglebox,the sounds and settings were very similar to the onboard one.JB's makers have essentially re created the original thingy as to tonality.
The original item has one drawback, in that there's an appearant volume decrease when switching on the 'pressor, caused by the compression.That made me have to fiddle with the volume, but there was only one song I did that on.
That problem has been handily resolved in the JB, by it's having a gain control which allows a better balancing of dry and wet volumes.There's also an attack knob, but that is of lesser use to me.If later on, I also use it with my 360, then it might be helpful to set for another guitar.And, battery changes are easier with the JB.
I think, that if circumstances were different, and the onboard item had been a regular item, then it too might have developed into something very like the Janglebox.
To sum it up, the RM is retired from regular use now, because I like the wider neck better,the Janglebox has the gain control,and the 660-12 isn't yet as much of a collectors item.
The only way to compare is with the RM and it was a rather easy comparison but took some time to do.The RM has 3 tonal settings in the rotary switch, and each also can be accessed with and without compression.So, there's a total of 6 presets, 6 switch positions.That's it for user selections.Likewise, the Janglebox has 3 tonal positions selected by a small toggle switch.They're marked Dark,Normal, and Bright.There's a foot switch for on/off, so with the JB, there's really only 4 presets.
That is really no big deal, as the little bit the RM got played dry, it was on the bright spot.
Now to playing the RM dry, but thru the Janglebox,the sounds and settings were very similar to the onboard one.JB's makers have essentially re created the original thingy as to tonality.
The original item has one drawback, in that there's an appearant volume decrease when switching on the 'pressor, caused by the compression.That made me have to fiddle with the volume, but there was only one song I did that on.
That problem has been handily resolved in the JB, by it's having a gain control which allows a better balancing of dry and wet volumes.There's also an attack knob, but that is of lesser use to me.If later on, I also use it with my 360, then it might be helpful to set for another guitar.And, battery changes are easier with the JB.
I think, that if circumstances were different, and the onboard item had been a regular item, then it too might have developed into something very like the Janglebox.
To sum it up, the RM is retired from regular use now, because I like the wider neck better,the Janglebox has the gain control,and the 660-12 isn't yet as much of a collectors item.
Re: First date
Excellent review, Don!
-
sloop_john_b
- Rick-a-holic
- Posts: 13843
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:00 am
Re: First date
Don, a big part of the difference you're hearing between the two guitars is most certainly the pickups (the 660/12 has scatterwound 7.4k ohm toasters, the RM has the 80's hot toasters), but also the fact that the RM is a hollowbody and the 660/12 is solid maple. I find that my 660/12 is probably the brightest Rick 12'er i've played yet, and IMO brighter is better when dealing with Rick 12's.
On the other hand, I find the 660/12 pretty neck-heavy. Had to find a very rough strap to alleviate that.
If you're interested in trying flatwounds, i'd go with TI's or D'Addario Chromes. My 660/12 has had the same set of rounds for quite a while and I like it just fine that way.
On the other hand, I find the 660/12 pretty neck-heavy. Had to find a very rough strap to alleviate that.
If you're interested in trying flatwounds, i'd go with TI's or D'Addario Chromes. My 660/12 has had the same set of rounds for quite a while and I like it just fine that way.
Re: First date
Tanks for the comments guys. 
Several years ago there was discussion in Voxtalks about the older toasters and unwinding them.I mulled it over as to doing it, or not and decided to keep the RM original.Flat wounds made it work ok. I never liked the feel of Pyramids, nor did I like them stressing the neck.I made up a mixed set from TI JS 110's for the roots and Ric strings for the octave.2+ years later, they are still right for the job.When I change them out I have something else in mind and will post about that after the fact.
For Monty, if I decide to try flats, I'll look into the D'Addario Chromes that I wasn't aware of. I like the brand as the Mitchell 12 acoustic I bought has a nice set of light gauge D'Addario bronze, that are no doubt responsible for making a >$200 guitar so playable.And, sound good as well.
But as I'm happy with Monty as he is, string change won't happen very soon.
Several years ago there was discussion in Voxtalks about the older toasters and unwinding them.I mulled it over as to doing it, or not and decided to keep the RM original.Flat wounds made it work ok. I never liked the feel of Pyramids, nor did I like them stressing the neck.I made up a mixed set from TI JS 110's for the roots and Ric strings for the octave.2+ years later, they are still right for the job.When I change them out I have something else in mind and will post about that after the fact.
For Monty, if I decide to try flats, I'll look into the D'Addario Chromes that I wasn't aware of. I like the brand as the Mitchell 12 acoustic I bought has a nice set of light gauge D'Addario bronze, that are no doubt responsible for making a >$200 guitar so playable.And, sound good as well.
But as I'm happy with Monty as he is, string change won't happen very soon.