Does The 12 Saddle Bridge Really Help?

[drumbob]

I'm thinking of putting a 12 saddle bridge on my 330-12 and wondered if it really helps keep the guitar intonated and in tune? I'm really having a hard time keeping the guitar in solid tune. One song and it's out. Do the Rick strings help? I have a standard set of D'Addario's on there now, and I think the gauges are too light generally.

How do you guys keep your Rick 12s in tune?

[jps]

For the short time I had my 660/12 I found the 12 saddle bridge to make it possible to play above the 12th fret and have everything intonate just fine.

[teb]

I've owned four twelves, a 360 (Arnquisted 12-saddle), 660 (factory stock 12 saddle) and the current two - a 360WB (Arnquisted 12-saddle) and my 330, currently 6-saddle that I set up myself). I had some intonation problems on the WB before I sent it to Mark, but it sounds like your guitar is going out of tune between songs, which I've never had a problem with on any of mine. Once they're tuned and assuming that they're set up for the best possible all-round intonation (which mathematically is going to be a compromise of some sort) they seem to pretty much stay that way. I can play one for a couple of hours or hang it on the wall for few days and it hardly changes at all. Switching to a twelve-saddle bridge or adjusting the position of the bridge base-plate may help with your fretting intonation problems and getting the guitar to play in tune, but I can't think of any reason why it would affect how long it will stay in tune. It would seem to me that the cause of such a problem would more likely be something slipping, stretching or moving than what type of bridge you have.

I generally use either RIC compressed rounds ot TI flats and see little reason to mess with different strings. New strings will stretch a bit, but within a few days of installing new ones and tuning up, things seem to stable-out nicely. Tuners slipping? Neck moving? Top flexing? Are you perhaps bending the neck while playing (which isn't hard to do) or bending strings as you try to fit your fingertips on a rather narrow fingerboard? I don't know, but if it's constantly going out of tune as you play, something strange is happening and a different bridge may not be the answer. I would certainly invest in a fresh set of RIC strings, which are both reasonably cheap and excellent and see what happens. The TI's are also great if you want vintage sound, but cost about $30-$35 per set. Wind the strings that go in the slotted tuner positions so that the windings stack up outward, toward the tuners, not inward toward the skunk stripe. This helps minimize interference caused by the strings passing over the TRC's edges. Speaking of the TRC, there seem to be variations in how much they get trimmed to reduce interference with the slot-strings and anything disrupting the straight path between the nut and the hole in the tuning peg is worth looking at if you're having intonation problems. If you trim them so much that the strings clear completely they look pretty funky, but a bit of careful trimming might be in order.

Maybe Paul or Dale will have better advice, but from my experience, once you get a Rickenbacker twelve tuned, it pretty much stays that way.

Slot strings wound outward, TRC trimmed.

[gregga41]

What gauge strings are the D'addario's on your 330/12 Bob?

[admin]

Todd, thanks for this fantastic post. That gorgeous headstock is not hard on the eyes either.
Bob, trying the Rickenbacker strings is an easy experiment. I have found them to work best for me. Also, presumably this problem with tuning has been long standing and not just a recent seasonal change. We have gone from very humid to very dry many times this past month which play havoc with tuning as the instrument tries to cope with climate change. I would put the 12 saddle bridge on your guitar.

[janglerocker]

Todd, thank you as well for such an in depth posting on the subject. I agree the Arnquist set up 12's seem really stable intonation wise, from all the comments I've read. I did my 360/12WB per his guidance and am very happy with it (12 saddle bridge equipped).

What do you use to trim your TRC? I'd hate to mess that up.

[jdogric12]

I would definitely use the RIC strings. The Daddarios just aren't quite right, and are probably the main source of your problems. I still recommend a 12-saddle bridge though. It's an easy reversible mod. The thing just sits on there, so I probably shouldn't even glorify it by calling it a "mod."

[teb]

Dan, I use either sandpaper by hand (starting about 80 grit) wrapped around a flat block for the convex curved side or around a big dowel (piece of closet pole) on the concave side of the curve, or my spindle-sander (which has a small sanding drum held vertical over a base plate). Do not try to cut one down with some sort of saw or blade as it might crack or break. The molded plastic TRC's are pretty soft and will sand down quickly, even by hand. Plexi TRC's take a bit longer. Once the shape is roughed out, I wet sand the edges by hand with finer and finer grits and finally polish them with a cloth and polishing compound. For this part of the process, I just hand-hold the paper (no back-up block). Even if you hold the paper perfectly square to the edge (which you should) this flexibility will put a very slight radius on the edge, which looks a bit more finished than a perfectly straight cut.

On plexi TRC's it's worth every minute spent to polish the edges with finer and finer grits until you can buff the edges to be perfectly clear.They look outstanding. You can even read the label through the edge.



If you fool around with guitars much, it's worth visiting your local Woodcraft store or their website and dropping $16.50 on a package of Micromesh sanding disks. You get an assortment of very durable 5" cloth-backed disks - 1,500 grit, 1,800, 2,400. 3,200, 3,800, 4,000, 6,000, 8,000 and 12,000 (which is fine enough that a dab of toothpaste on a cloth will then finish almost any polishing job). They're actually made for random orbit sanders, but I use mine mostly by hand for wet-sanding (with or without a block). After the job is done, I rinse the surface of the disks to remove sanding residue and just let them dry so that they're ready to use next time. They will last quite a while.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5232

[steverok]

I don't like the 12-saddle bridge for sound - I think it gets thinner and more "gamey". It also doesn't sound like the solution to your problem. While I have certainly had to work to get my 360-12 to where I want it, one problem it definitely does not have is staying in tune. Like others have said, mine stays in tune for days or weeks at a time, for the most part.

[janglerocker]

Great stuff. Thanks, Todd.

[drumbob]

Thanks for all the good replies. I'll start by taking it to a guitar tech with experience on Rick 12s and have him put a set of Rick strings on there, which I will order tomorrow from Chris at Pick O Ricks. I too think it's the strings. The D'Addario's just don't make it on the Rick, although they work just fine on my Danelectro 12 for some reason. I used it last night at rehearsal and just took it out of the gig bag and it was still in tune. The Dano is cool, but I need to use my Rick.

[johnashfield]

My experience has been that not all 12 strings need the 12 saddle bridge, but the ones that do, really need it. I have it on mine, it sounds great. Without it, it didn't play in tune at all, the low e pair would just beat all day. New strings, set up, none of this helped. The 12 saddle did the trick.

Mine stays in tune forever. No problems there at all. In fact I would say that my rick basses and guitars have never had a problem staying in tune, and that the 12 string needing the 12 saddle bridge was the only mod that any of my ricks ever needed.

[beatlefreak]

As John Hall has said many times, the RIC twelve saddle bridge should be used as a last resort. After a proper setup with a flat neck, low action and intonation with a new set of strings fails to achieve satisfactory results, the twelve saddle bridge may be the only cure.

[8mileshigher]

I also have an Arnquisted 12 saddle bridge on my 360-12 and I tune it up before my weekly jam session and its fine for the duration. Never have had to re-tune it during the jam. I find the temperture and humidity changes impact my Ric's tunings more than my playing activity. I always use Ric strings.
Regards - Rich F.

[brianeharmonjr]

After having some intonation problems, I decided to try a 12-saddle bridge on my 330/12VP and it has made a world of difference. At the same time, I switched back to flats (P*****d Golds), set up the neck and string height, and set the intonation, and Wow. After setting the intonation, you can just see how much of a difference it will make by where the saddles ended up. After I was finished I plugged her in, and I must say, it was the best decision I've made in a long time. Now I can go anywhere on the neck and don't have to worry about it at all. As far as tone goes, I have noticed no difference whatsoever. And I have not had to tune her since the switch. I will say it is definitely worth a try. It is a completely reversible modification that can be done fairly quickly and painlessly. If it doesn't help, switch back. I say go for it.