Lapsteel and horseshoe

[sangandongo]

Hey everyone,

I posted this to the Rickenbacker.com forum as well, so forgive me if you've read this once already. There seems to be a huge wealth of knowledge here at rr though, so I thought I'd post here as well in hopes of getting an answer.

I picked up what may be a '37 Ric lap steel today, though while reading this forum, I found out that most pre-40s horseshoes are 1.5 inches, not 1.25. Its patent number states that it would have been a '37 at the earliest, though, and the pot codes indicate that they were made in a year ending in 7, so its either a '37 or '47.



Anyhow, the guy I bought it from said someone did some wiring inside, after which the pickup ceased functioning. I was worried that the pickup wire was damaged, so i removed the pickup and the control wiring while I was in it to be sure. After removing the positive and negative leads to the pickup from the controls, I tested the pickup and it had integrity. It read 1.8k, though I'm not sure if that's a good reading for a horseshoe of this vintage.

After testing it with a multimeter, I connected it to the control leads carefully, and was able to get sound from the pickup.

The problem is, the positive lead from the coil is shorting out on the base of the pickup due to where its fastened. See picture below.



What is the correct way for this to be fastened?

Thanks for your answers,

John

[johnallg]

John, not an expert, but the early bass horseshoe coils were around 5k, so yours is low. Is the bottom of the form wood or brass, I can't tell from the picture. If it conducts, it looks like both coil wires are attached to it and probably due to corrosion partly shorted out. Having never seen one of these, all speculation on my part. Did you also post this in the Rickenbacker Steels forum on this site?

[sangandongo]

I didn't want to cross post, as that's usually that's a forum "no-no," so I didn't post it to the steel section.

The pickup base is brass.

As I was able to get the pickup to make noise, I guess at this point, I just need to figure out how I'm going to get that wire on there so that it doesn't get yanked off if the pickup needs to get removed again. likely, I'll end up having to use electrical tape + great care (and hope for good memory), as I can't figure out another way to keep it from getting grounded yet fastened properly.

I will post something in the steel forum about this thread with a link and hopefully get someone's attention.

[sangandongo]

I got it working, but I still would like to know how to get it wired right.

I took a piece of electrical tape and stuck it to the brass base. I took the terminal point and taped it on top of the tape, so it wouldn't come loose and wouldn't ground. I then soldered the leads on and closed it up.

It sounds great... huge sound, very metallic on the lower strings. I play open G when playing slide on my regular guitars, so I chose that as my tuning. (this is my first steel.)

Now... to get some tunes down. I'll check back again in hopes someone suggested a fix for my problem.

Thanks!

--
j.

[johnallg]

Great news! I take it it is much louder now.

Did you happen to ohm the coil once one end was isolated from the brass? Only one end needs to be isolated. The other end can be on the brass and go to the ground of the whole instrument. Helps with hum.

[sangandongo]

Yep, I only isolated the positive end, the ground end remained underneath the coil mount screw.

That Ohm reading was actually from the instrument when one side was isolated. 1.8k seems to be it, but its a loud, loud 1.8k. It really sings.

I was up well after midnight relearning Highway 61 Revisited, Rollin' and Tumblin', and so on... stuff I can play with a standard electric. Its really not a hard transition, but the muscle memory is not there. My vibrato is much better on my right hand, I'm thinking of teaching myself to play "left" before I get too used to playing it right.

It was late, so I was only playing through a pignose. I'll put it into one of my old Gibsons today and see how it sounds.

--
j.

[johnallg]

Great, John. Magnetism of the shoes has to be strong then. Have more fun than a grown man should with it.

[sangandongo]

I assume the shoes can be recharged if necessary? They must be lower than they should be if the reading is only 1.8k, but I'm worried about messing with something that isn't broked.

[soundmasterg]

The shoes can be recharged, but that doesn't have anything to do with the resistance of the pickup. That is only due to the amount of wire around the bobbin of the pickup, and since the reading is so low, the coil is probably somewhat shorted. I'd send it to Jason Lollar for a rewind....he's an expert on these old RIC horseshoes.

Greg

http://www.lollarguitars.com

[sangandongo]

You're probably right about the partial short, the outer protective "gum" for lack of better terminology is gone. If the price is reasonable, I'll get it rewound. Again, the right resistance is about 5k Ohm?

--
j.

[sangandongo]

Thought I'd post the correspondence I had with Jason Lollar, as it may help others in the future with a similar issue as my own.

I am about 12 weeks out on rewinds at the moment though so let me know if
you want to wait that long I will send you shipping instructions.
I have never seen a pickup with a 1.25 magnet that was a rickenbacker made
before around 1946 or so.
I have seen them as low as 1.8K- more important is how does it sound?
The 1.25 will sound a little brighter than the wider shoe so it should be
able to overdrive a newer tube amp somewhat easily and should have a nice
full bass with an overall bright sound that you may have to roll a little
tone back to make it sound sweet.
If it doesn't have enough power to overdrive a tube amp or it is lacking a
strong bass it may have a problem with the coil.

Jason lollar

My reponse was:

Well, you've answered a lot of questions I had. First off, I figured, "If it
ain't broke, don't fix it." I'd have waited the 12 weeks
for sure, but it does sound sweet as it is. I play through old Gibson amps;
I have two Skylark Crestline 5Watt amps and two larger 25Watters, a Mariner and
a Hawk. This drives them really well, in truth. I don't own a new tube amp, so I can't really test that way.

I figured out that turning the tone down about 1/4 to 1/2 gets me in a
really sweet spot where the mids start to "wah" a little but I don't lose
some of that high end granularity. The low strings are bassy, but it was a
balancing act getting the height correct on both sides, because the magnets
aren't spaced the same.

The problem when I got it was that the north end of the coil was mounted to
the base of the pickup in the same way as the south end of the coil, causing
a complete short. I could not figure out how to affix it to the pickup
without grounding out, so I placed a length of electrical tape down, layed
the eyelet which fits into the mounting screw on it, then taped another
piece over he eyelet, leaving only the solder point exposed.

This seems to do the trick, but its certainly not right. I just don't see
another place I can mount this without getting grounded. I emailed someone
in hopes of getting a picture of the back of a 1.25 horseshoe, with luck
he'll respond.

I may decide that this does need a magnet recharge on it though, so go ahead
and send me the shipping info and let me know when I should send it off for
that. I'm also thinking about buying one of your telecaster neck position
pickups, so I may do this all at once.

Thanks for the advice.

And finally:

Photos of the underside of rick pickups I don't have many of- here is a
typical example- a single hot lead with a ground and a double hot lead with
a ground
I cant write pages on this but some ricks have to have the bottom of the
bobbin grounded to work- they wont work at all- there is no visible ground
wire on some- the coil is soldered to one of the end pole pieces, these
would have what appears to be two hot wires and no ground.
I am not sure what you mean by it getting grounded out
jason

[stevebasshead]

I assume the shoes can be recharged if necessary?

Hi, have a look at my posting titled "remagnetising horseshoes" a bit further down this forum - probably the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to do it. Not as quick as a factory recharge (seconds as opposed to overnight) but it works a treat.

Regards,
Steve.

[sangandongo]

I finally fixed up the pickup with a little creativity. I took a piece of electrical tape and placed it over the mounting hole for the north end coil mount point. Pushed through the tape, then instead of using the original brass screw which was grounding and killing the coil, I found a nylon finger screw with the same thread and mounted the eyelet down to the pickup. after that, i resoldered the control pot lead and the coil north end to the eyelet.

I placed the screw into a bag along with the loose block of wood i found inside the body and put them into the case of my 4001, so when I figure out how to fix it proper, they won't have gone to the mysterious place all my other things go to when i need them most.

Here's a picture of the fix:


and here's a sound sample of the instrument after the fix (forgive me my poor lapsteel skills, i've only had it two weeks, most of which wasn't functional.)
http://dumb.org/sounds/rt1.mp3

Thanks for the help from everyone. Steve, your remagnetizing trick worked well. There was a significant difference in strength afterwards.

--
j.

[stevebasshead]

I'm glad it's working again, another RIC rescued

[johnallg]

Yup, nice solution John.