Philip, you could be correct, but honestly, I don't know what they are thinking by putting up those ratings.
You can make more money with used instruments than you can with new ones. If you had a nice used Rick in your shop, why would you lower your chances of selling it by posting a rating that basically claims that the instrument isn't worth buying? Obviously someone that knows and loves Ricks would buy it, but how could you sell it to someone with little or know experience with one, that was considering it, but now thinks it's a bad instrument?
My feeling is, an instrument is great to those who love everything about it, and everyone is different.
Ed Roman rates Rickenbacker, et al
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
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rickenbrother
- RRF Moderator
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When I called Ed's shop a year ago looking for a 4004, they said they had no idea when one would be available, but they had orders in. Maybe this is an attempt to get a customer to change their mind to a different instrument so that they don't lose a sale due to inability to supply them. You are absolutely correct in the fact that Ed can't make much profit on a new Rickenbacker if he competes against internet dealers. Most of them are probably sold to walk-in customers, and the prices don't have to be as low as internet prices, since the customer gets to "cherry pick". Ed once said that the typical Rickenbacker customer was extremely fussy over even the most minor surface blemishes, so he probably has troubles with slight shipping damages, etc., and hears about it more from Rick owners than other brand owners. The fact he has 150 Rickenbackers in stock at all times says that he does not believe his own rating, and as we were taught in psychology class, actions speak louder than words. The average walk-in Rickenbacker buyer probably never sees his website rating. Used instruments are usually bought walk-ins, not mailorder customers. Mailorder buyers like myself generally want return privileges or manufacturer warranty or super low price to compensate for the chance we take buying sight unseen. Ed does not sell Taylor or Martin, but sells Tacoma instead. The factory may therefore have cut him a special deal that allows him to undercut other Tacoma dealers, and still make a decent profit. Tacoma admitted that Ed was their largest dealer when I called them. We all know that ED would not be shy about trying to swing a special deal. RIC gives nobody a special deal. RIC gets a 1-star rating. Spector and Warwick get none of their high value models listed, that are sold by the major discounters. Spector only gets a 5-star rating since Ed personally likes Stuart and Stuart does him favors such as selling him a special bass that Stuart made for himself. Ed is proud of that fact and shows the photo of the bass. A large number of the cheaper Spectors are used by professionals, and Ed makes no mention of that fact. Collin Raye, with over 20 top ten country hits, uses the cheapest Spector Performer 4 bass on stage. How many performers use a MIM Fender on stage? And remember that Fender is by far the largest seller of basses, with customers that are brainwashed into buying nothing else by the sheer numbers they see played on stage. Ed is making little attempt to steer customers to the really great entry level basses, or he would advertise Warwick RockBass and Spector Performer and Professional series to high heaven, but instead makes no mention of the fact. So they get a Jay Turser instead and Ed hopes to sell them a boutique bass with a higher markup later on down the road. The Rickenbacker aficionado will buy Rickenbacker no matter what the rating says, and the same goes for Warwick. The newby might be persuaded otherwise.
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jeff_ulmer
- Intermediate Member
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I don't think Ed stating that they had no idea when a 4004 would be available is an attempt to steer someone to another brand, it's a simple fact when ordering a Ric, especially basses - you have no idea when it will be available. I called Ric a number of times about the availability of the 4004s, and even they couldn't (or wouldn't) say anything about when a guitar might actually ship. That doesn't exactly help out the guy who needs a guitar to work with, even when trying to plan ahead.
Are Ric buyers flakey? If that means do I pay attention to details and expect an instrument that lives up to the price I'm paying for it, then in my case, yes. Does it mean that someone trying to hawk a bass they don't have and have no idea when it may be available may lose a sale to someone who has stock, perhaps. If his sale pricing is a lot higher than another dealer, would I be likely to see if I could find another instrument of similar style elsewhere for less, definitely.
I would consider myself a fairly seasoned guitar buyer, so I know what I want. Unless I'm buying solid colors, I don't really like ordering from the factory, as I have no idea what I'm getting other than a particular body shape. Things like the figuring in the wood, which I am very opinionated about, are best bought when I can see them, the same with faded finishes. I probably couldn't find two guitars in 150 that I really had to have. Do Rics rate a single star? I don't think so, but they are not the easiest instrument to buy new, so if that goes towards a rating, it would have to be reflected.
Are Ric buyers flakey? If that means do I pay attention to details and expect an instrument that lives up to the price I'm paying for it, then in my case, yes. Does it mean that someone trying to hawk a bass they don't have and have no idea when it may be available may lose a sale to someone who has stock, perhaps. If his sale pricing is a lot higher than another dealer, would I be likely to see if I could find another instrument of similar style elsewhere for less, definitely.
I would consider myself a fairly seasoned guitar buyer, so I know what I want. Unless I'm buying solid colors, I don't really like ordering from the factory, as I have no idea what I'm getting other than a particular body shape. Things like the figuring in the wood, which I am very opinionated about, are best bought when I can see them, the same with faded finishes. I probably couldn't find two guitars in 150 that I really had to have. Do Rics rate a single star? I don't think so, but they are not the easiest instrument to buy new, so if that goes towards a rating, it would have to be reflected.
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navybass
I don't put any stock in what someone like Ed or any other store owner says about equipment.
They will say just about anything you want to hear in order to sell something
I don't blame them for it, it's their bread and butter, how they put food in their mouths.
We here all know that Ric makes a great product, otherwise, we wouldn't own one or more of them.
They will say just about anything you want to hear in order to sell something
I don't blame them for it, it's their bread and butter, how they put food in their mouths.
We here all know that Ric makes a great product, otherwise, we wouldn't own one or more of them.
Exactly, John. Ed's rating system would best be described as "how much this bass makes for me versus how much effort I put into it when dealing with you internet shoppers". Rickenbackers are so hard to find in most local stores that people such as myself are almost forced to buy them from online dealers. The store I bought my Spector ReBop from didn't even know that my RIC model 650D existed and that it was competitive to their Gibson SG's or Les Paul's. And they are the world's largest Gibson guitar shop that's been in business for decades!!! That means Rick buyers like me will order from a dealer that has the lowest price on an in-stock instrument we desire within any reasonable shipping distance. That means profit is slashed to the bone, and quite frankly, If I were a dealer I would save MY Rickenbackers for walk-in customers unless the mailorder buyer wanted to pay my walk-in price. Which means very few sales for any calls received and not worth my bother, which means a 1-star rating for internet buyers even if it was a 7-star bass in my store. For instance, the dealer I bought my 650D from was $125 under the Musician's Friend price. Ed would rather sell a custom instrument that he stands to make a few hundred dollars on, and it's a better investment for his guitar stocking funds. So his rating system is strictly from an Ed-centric viewpoint. It also means he has sold out to profit just like the chain stores he rants against when it comes to giving honest advice. Let's hope he doesn't get to be another chainstore some day.
About my opinion on wood figuring: My father taught me to not worry too much about wood grain pattern and finish on a guitar (he bought only one new guitar in his life that I know about). The best guitars are the ones that play and sound the best, and an acoustic must have some age and usage to sound its best. His old Gretsch is starting to look like Stevie Ray Vaughn borrowed it for some guitar surfing, but it still remains his favorite electric of all time (although my 650D is growing on him). He says Willie Nelson plays that old acoustic with the (extra) hole in the top because it is one fine sounding guitar, at least while it's in Willie's hands. Take 100 acoustic guitars of the same model, and there's only 1 chance in 100 that the one with the best wood figure is the best sounding one of the bunch. Any good luthier will tell you that the best sounding pieces of tonewood they run across often have visual defects, and if a customer is willing to accept less than perfect looking wood, they can get great tone at a much lower price. Look at all the vintage Strats and Teles with mismatched wood grain that people now want to buy for their tonal characteristics.
About my opinion on wood figuring: My father taught me to not worry too much about wood grain pattern and finish on a guitar (he bought only one new guitar in his life that I know about). The best guitars are the ones that play and sound the best, and an acoustic must have some age and usage to sound its best. His old Gretsch is starting to look like Stevie Ray Vaughn borrowed it for some guitar surfing, but it still remains his favorite electric of all time (although my 650D is growing on him). He says Willie Nelson plays that old acoustic with the (extra) hole in the top because it is one fine sounding guitar, at least while it's in Willie's hands. Take 100 acoustic guitars of the same model, and there's only 1 chance in 100 that the one with the best wood figure is the best sounding one of the bunch. Any good luthier will tell you that the best sounding pieces of tonewood they run across often have visual defects, and if a customer is willing to accept less than perfect looking wood, they can get great tone at a much lower price. Look at all the vintage Strats and Teles with mismatched wood grain that people now want to buy for their tonal characteristics.
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jwr2
ok ... we can all take Ed Roman's advice .. we can dump those one star Ric's and get some quality jay turser replacements ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2369413235&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2369176495&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368707704&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368350136&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2369440743&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2369413235&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2369176495&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368707704&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368350136&category=4713
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2369440743&category=4713
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daniel_holopoff
Hmmm.......your descripion of Ed fits SO many people these days.
Actually, Ed does you a favor by possibly turning people away from new Rickenbackers and shortening the waiting period for those who feel they MUST have a new Rickenbacker. I don't buy new guitars and basses anymore, so what Ed says is irrelevant to me even if he was relevant. Also, Ed once said that buyers were better off buying new Rickenbackers over used ones (before he dreamed up this rating scheme). That is true on some models like the 650D that are available "in stock" from internet dealers at steep discount. Absolutely untrue on models that are out of production. Most knowledgeable buyers I know tend to stick to used guitars and basses. They buy quality and what they personally like instead of hype.
If Ed was to become relevant, he would probably be beyond boring.
Actually, Ed does you a favor by possibly turning people away from new Rickenbackers and shortening the waiting period for those who feel they MUST have a new Rickenbacker. I don't buy new guitars and basses anymore, so what Ed says is irrelevant to me even if he was relevant. Also, Ed once said that buyers were better off buying new Rickenbackers over used ones (before he dreamed up this rating scheme). That is true on some models like the 650D that are available "in stock" from internet dealers at steep discount. Absolutely untrue on models that are out of production. Most knowledgeable buyers I know tend to stick to used guitars and basses. They buy quality and what they personally like instead of hype.
If Ed was to become relevant, he would probably be beyond boring.
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wileyibex
Ed Roman passed boring a long time ago. His infantile ravings and calculated verbal fire-bombings of instrument makers became predictable and worthy of dismissal back way back before he had his last original thought.
Simply put, who knows WHAT factors Ed Roman considered in order to come up with his bass ratings? I don't possess any special insight that allows me, with any certainty, to discern motives for such a noted wingnut as Ed Roman's thoughts and actions. A reading of his web page gives the appearance that he makes a practice of alienating the manufacturers he (often no longer) represents. It appears that he routinely slags the "prestige," mass-market name in favor of the little-known marque (PRS is over the hill, Heritage is better than Gibson, etc., etc.) or in favor of his in-house makes. I also note that he carries a lot of product geared toward metalheads. Maybe the Ric line doesn't fit in wih that demographic?
Still, if Ed rates Jay Turser, or Washburn, or whomever, ahead of Ric basses, it's his call. What's it based on? Don't know; could be any number of things, ranging from availability, price, and warranty; down to his or somebody else's evaluation of tone, playability, options, and the like. It is, after all, his opinion, and he's entitled to it. I would think that a vast number of clients and potential clients opt either to ignore ER's rants and screeds, hold their nose and buy from him based on price and availability, or take their business elsewhere lest his craziness be catching.
Suffice to say, though, it's his business, and he can run it any way he wants to. Far be it from me to attempt to read any hidden meaning into any of his many and varied pronouncements. I suggest that anyone who spends much time contemplating Ed Roman's proclamations has WAAAAY too much time on their hands and would do well to find another hobby.
About the "used Ric" thing; 2 thoughts:
(1) Ric owners probably tend toward "collectors," and are likely fairly knowledgeable and picky as a group. The guitars (at least; can't speak for the basses) are prickly beasts, difficult to setup, difficult to properly intonate. spare parts and luthiers/techs to work on Ric's are in short supply. I can understand why ER might choose to shy away from used Ric guitars. and,
(2) It does make more sense to buy "used" than "new" on models that are no longer in production, as new ones don't exist.
Simply put, who knows WHAT factors Ed Roman considered in order to come up with his bass ratings? I don't possess any special insight that allows me, with any certainty, to discern motives for such a noted wingnut as Ed Roman's thoughts and actions. A reading of his web page gives the appearance that he makes a practice of alienating the manufacturers he (often no longer) represents. It appears that he routinely slags the "prestige," mass-market name in favor of the little-known marque (PRS is over the hill, Heritage is better than Gibson, etc., etc.) or in favor of his in-house makes. I also note that he carries a lot of product geared toward metalheads. Maybe the Ric line doesn't fit in wih that demographic?
Still, if Ed rates Jay Turser, or Washburn, or whomever, ahead of Ric basses, it's his call. What's it based on? Don't know; could be any number of things, ranging from availability, price, and warranty; down to his or somebody else's evaluation of tone, playability, options, and the like. It is, after all, his opinion, and he's entitled to it. I would think that a vast number of clients and potential clients opt either to ignore ER's rants and screeds, hold their nose and buy from him based on price and availability, or take their business elsewhere lest his craziness be catching.
Suffice to say, though, it's his business, and he can run it any way he wants to. Far be it from me to attempt to read any hidden meaning into any of his many and varied pronouncements. I suggest that anyone who spends much time contemplating Ed Roman's proclamations has WAAAAY too much time on their hands and would do well to find another hobby.
About the "used Ric" thing; 2 thoughts:
(1) Ric owners probably tend toward "collectors," and are likely fairly knowledgeable and picky as a group. The guitars (at least; can't speak for the basses) are prickly beasts, difficult to setup, difficult to properly intonate. spare parts and luthiers/techs to work on Ric's are in short supply. I can understand why ER might choose to shy away from used Ric guitars. and,
(2) It does make more sense to buy "used" than "new" on models that are no longer in production, as new ones don't exist.
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fenderbender
Ed comes in for some serious stick on the Steinberger World forums too.
He bought up shed loads of Steinbergers when production ceased & stripped them down. He now charges insane prices for the parts ($150 for a plastic battery cover, $399 for a strap hanger !) He also bought all the factory reject bodies & used them to build his own "Steinbergers" - but neglected to tell buyers they were getting factory reject parts.
A good business man - maybe, a nice person - no.
He bought up shed loads of Steinbergers when production ceased & stripped them down. He now charges insane prices for the parts ($150 for a plastic battery cover, $399 for a strap hanger !) He also bought all the factory reject bodies & used them to build his own "Steinbergers" - but neglected to tell buyers they were getting factory reject parts.
A good business man - maybe, a nice person - no.
