Dead spots on v63

[johnallg]

Great info, Ted. Thanks.

[pacealot]

+1 to John. Thanks, Ted, for spelling out the process so clearly. I'm off to tighten screws and readjust the rods according to your instructions.

I find that it's really hard to tell how severe the "dead" notes are until I'm actually playing with my rig at stage volume. Unfortunately, that's when they tend to rear their heads the most gruesomely. The intro to one of my band's songs starts with just the bass and drums, and the bass figure includes long sustaining notes of G, A, and B on the D string. Yep, right in the thick - or rather, thin - of the problem.

I have wondered, like Philip, what degree of effect changing the tailpiece/bridge would have. In a perfect world, I would love to be able to swap in a pre-73 cast bridge and tailpiece, but since those are now almost never seen and are prohibitively expensive when they do show up, I'll have to make my 5-screw work for now. Seems like a Hipshot would look especially out of place on a V63!

[wints]

Welcome Paul.

As mentioned earlier, one of my 64 RM1999's has the D/9th dead spot and on the 67S out at present it's the D/10th that lacks the sustain, and both have the original heavy bridges.

I tend to think like Ted, it's just part of the Rickenbacker bass factor. Tweaking the rods may possibly bring advancements in this area, but it's certainly a common trait it would appear.

I tend to think Squire's bass has the same dead spots too...

[heinpete]

As I only play round wound strings, I guess that makes the appearence of dead spots a little bit more difficult?

[ajish4]

Great thread!

I always ASSumed a "dead spot" was just that, DEAD..an unplayable note..I had a MIM Fender Jazz that from the 13th fret up, it went "THUNK" on a whole bunch of frets. Not a lack of sustain, just a DEAD THUNK. I messed with it for weeks, but it still had like 5 notes that went THUNK. My luthier was able to get it down to 3 notes, but said the neck was horrible.

I have noticed the 3rd & 5th fret G string giving a bit less sustain, but never thought of it as a dead spot because it came and went with different strings and it still rang out. It didn't "thunk".

The only RIC that went THUNK, was my '88 V63....13th fret on the "G" string. A setup by my luthier discovered a slight up bow in the neck. The neck was "steamed" and clamped for 2 to 3 weeks, and that was that. It never gave me another problem again.

"Very interesting".....

[rickfan60]

Another factor is how well the tailpiece fits in the bass body. The body route that sits directly beneath the bridge is sometimes a little too deep. Newer CNC cut Ricks are far less likely to be that way but when it happens the tailpiece does not make solid contact. Several people here have tried filling the excess space with washers or wood to great effect. My '80 4001 became a new bass after I shimmed the lower part of the tailpiece with a thin piece of maple. Prior to that, the 7th fret of the D string and the open E were dead. Now they ring like they are supposed to ring.

[86kubicki]

In my experience, all basses have dead spots to varying degrees. The trick is to know when to avoid those areas when you need a long sustained note, and look for a substitute (another note, same note on a different string or octave up/down).

[rickboy88]

I've been doing some "testing" on my 4000 series basses, and just compared them to my new Fender Jaguar bass. I posted the results to the Ric corporate forum:

http://www.rickenbacker.com/forum_view_ ... 466&Page=2

The upshot is that I found that the Fender Jaguar had the same D string, 9th fret (B natural on the nose) lack of sustain the same or worse than my 4000 series Rics did. The necks appear to have resonance there. My older 4001S (with thicker neck and my avatar) has more of a resonance slightly flatter than that B natural octave, and possibly combined with the greater neck mass appears to have more sustain on that fret and fewer dead spots. The 4001S is resonant in between "in tune" electronic tuner pitches.

When the neck resonates, energy from plucking the string is dissipated more than on other notes. Lightly touch the big E string with another fretting finger when you pluck the "more dead" note and you'll will feel it passively vibrate more than on other notes. This is an example of the wasted mechanical energy that kills sustain.

I guess there is no ideal bass. Short scales seem less prone to dead spots, but intonation as you go up the neck can be a bit more dicey (although my $200 Rogue "Violin bass" does pretty well). I have 10 basses now, evenly split between short and long scales.

[JeffCullen]

True - either the mutes, or else he's doing the very tricky business of palm muting in that small space between the bridge and the mute. Either way, that certainly would affect the sustain.

I nail this sound on my C64 using the palm muting trick... great sound, I far prefer it to the sound of the mute... but you have to be super steady with the bottom side of your hand or you do run into inconsistent sustain... have to make sure I'm picking using only my thumb and index finger (with the pick used sideways of course!)

As far as dead spots go, neither my '01 4003 or '06 C64 have any glaring issues, though my Geddy Lee jazz has a small bit of weakness in the usual Jazz Bass location...

[rickfan60]

The chief builder at Lakland told me they added carbon fiber rods to strengthen the necks. They and their customers noticed a sharp decrease in the occurance and severity of dead spots. The CF rods would certainly alter the mass of the neck as RIC tried to do with lead weights back in the mid 70's Here is a shot of the lead weights used back then. The weight is missing from the upper board but present in the lower one.

There is another seldom mentioned 70's change apparent in that picture. You can see the marks left by the truss rods. Notice how the marks on the upper board are closer together than the lower one? About '76 - as near as I can figure anyway - RIC respaced the rods. They are closer together after about '76. This is useful info when determining the age of a carcass.

[rickboy88]

Interesting info, Ted. I've wondered if a truss rod design such as the old Hagstrom design might be more rigid and make the wood neck (with truss rods only) be less prone to dead-spots, or more accurately "spots of less sustain." The new Hags made in China (guitars only, not basses) still use the old truss rod design apparently, which is essentially an i-beam shape:
http://www.hagstromguitars.com/features.html

My old Hagstrom basses have this design, I think mainly because the necks are so thin and narrow they needed better support. I had to get used to playing my first one back in the early 1980's.

The "H-expander" appears to still be patented. The old Hagstrom basses I've acquired since the first one didn't need much truss rod adjust. My angle on using something like it would be to hopefully dampen any neck resonant responses by increasing the rigidity.

Forgive the Hagstrom mention out of "The Others" but I thought it applied to the this thread, and would be helpful info.

[rickfan60]

There is such a thing as making a neck too strong. If it is too strong it is harder to pull it back into shape when it needs adjustments. That is the danger of using carbon stiffeners and other reinforcements. Of course it is strong enough in the first place it won't need adjustments ever. The Travis Beans and the first Kramers had metal necks that did not move (much). I was not aware that Hagstrom used an I beam stiffener. Interesting. Are the necks adjustable? Some old Martins had solid steel, non-adjustable rods that did a pretty good job of keeping the necks straight.

[86kubicki]

The chief builder at Lakland told me they added carbon fiber rods to strengthen the necks. They and their customers noticed a sharp decrease in the occurance and severity of dead spots. The CF rods would certainly alter the mass of the neck as RIC tried to do with lead weights back in the mid 70's Here is a shot of the lead weights used back then. The weight is missing from the upper board but present in the lower one.

I have three US Laklands and the 4 string and hollowbody both suffer from the typical "Fender'" dead spot at the 7th "D" on the G string. However the 5 string dead spot is MUCH less pronounced. This may be due to a longer 35" scale, or the fact that the headstock is thicker and mass more mass than the 4 string.

[rickfan60]

Do you know if they have graphite rods?

[woodyng]

hiya,phil! first off,that v63 is a beauty. in response to your question about the hipshot,i recently installed one (aluminum) on my 74 4000 to fix an intonation issue. the weight is very similar to the rick bridge,unlike the brass model. the new bridge rests completely on the body,not partially like the rick bridge. one thing i noticed as soon as the strings were back on,was there seemed to be a much more even response, up and down the neck and string to string, than before. it was a subtle,not overwheming change,but definitely there. so,it may be that it could help/fix your issue. there's a lot of varying opinions about these bridges-personally, i prefer the hipshot's appearance,and the functionality can't be beat. you can always keep the rick bridge in your case for resale...(as i am doing)