DOWN THE RABBIT-HOLE

[jingle_jangle]

Now, just for the record, I don't "hate" Fenders. I own at least a half-dozen and as long as you stay away from relics and CS items, the new ones are terrific value for the money.

But here's one that is a prime example of the "follow me" syndrome. That's where price of an item, exclusive of its true value, becomes inflated because demand far outstrips supply, because everyone's got one and everyone plays one and you just have to have it. This happens most often with hyperpopular brands that are seen everywhere. The really vintage ones go stratospheric in price and eventually carry their neighbors way up with them.

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/30U-14518.htm

A '68 Tele (during the WORST of the CBS years!), mint condition "except for stain on back from case lining", one owner, with all the cost-cutting that could be possibly done on a $249.00 geetar in those days, including and especially those cheezy "F" tuners, OHSC, etc., for...

$8500.00 (or the price of a nicely-worn early Capri or RM).

It would be a nice $1500.00 guitar.

Remember, I don't hate Fenders.

Another thought: I wonder how much the "relic" craze has affected prices of true oldies. Would this geetar be worth less or more these days if relics hadn't reared their chain saw-coiffured, keyscratched, badly-crafted, overvalued headstocks?

[rikk]

What goes up must come down. As prices go too far up, there will only so many people that can actually afford to buy it.

[jimk]

Boy, that's for sure!
<shakes head>

JimK

[paologregorio]

That price is nuts.

[alanz]

Clearly the "pre-CBS" thing with Fenders has faded with time. I can remember being a teenager in the 70's and having these discussions with my rocker pals. Any new Fender was generally just a new guitar and was far less desirable than a "pre-CBS" Fender (but even way then the "real" Fenders were out of our price range). In fact, Music Man was the new "pre-CBS" Fender and then later G&L was the new Musicman. I think. Right?

Nowadays it's just "How old is it? It IS? OK, it's vintage and therefore is expensive."

Eh, whatever. If it sounds good, play it.

[octagon]

This is even crazier and I saw another one sell for twice as much!

[paologregorio]

WRT Fenders, or Gretsches, I'd rather just buy a U.S. reissue. It's nice, it's new, everything works. It's been reverse engineered to have the most desirable features of the real vintage instruments. Why bother with a real relic if the price is in the stratoshpere? In the case of Rickies, I'd just buy a V or C series, new or used, or buy a beater used model and have it redone the way I want. I've only owned WBs and 381s, so my tastes are pretty specific as to what I like in Ricks.

I never thought I'd see the day when late 60s and 70s era Fenders would be "vintage". Next thing will be 80s guitars. Come to think of it, the `62 vintage U.S. RI Mary Kaye Strat I bought back in the 80s is only three years younger in age than an original 62 Strat was when I bought my reissue. Will it be considered a Vintage vintage reissue in three more years? Is the magic age 25 years old? I'll probably wreck the concept in any case becasue I want to have the body refinished; I want to keep it in the best possible condition for future use. I have "relic'd" over the years with all of the gigging. Does that mean I could get more for it if I sold it? It has player's "mojo"

[ric330]

Right on Paul.
I don't hate Fender either but for that Kind of Money,
I'd rather have a couple more Ricks

I did own a 59' Esquire Relic (paid $2000)that was very cool but it had an unstable neck - which is not fun to adjust on a regular basis. Hence I sold her.

[jingle_jangle]

This is even crazier and I saw another one sell for twice as much!

A $400.00 actual value masonite-topped cheapo...yep, cool guitars, but you can get 5 reissues in all the colors for that kind of scratch.

[jingle_jangle]

WRT Fenders, or Gretsches, I'd rather just buy a U.S. reissue.

...which, in the case of a Gretsch, would cost you $8K, and would be of no higher quality than a Terada-made Japanese reissue, at $2K or thereabouts.

Oh, except that the USA reissues are painted in lacquer. (snicker)

[teeder]

Clearly the "pre-CBS" thing with Fenders has faded with time. I can remember being a teenager in the 70's and having these discussions with my rocker pals. Any new Fender was generally just a new guitar and was far less desirable than a "pre-CBS" Fender (but even way then the "real" Fenders were out of our price range). In fact, Music Man was the new "pre-CBS" Fender and then later G&L was the new Musicman. I think. Right?

Nowadays it's just "How old is it? It IS? OK, it's vintage and therefore is expensive."

Eh, whatever. If it sounds good, play it.

It's not that the pre-CBS thing has faded that makes this guitar $8,500.00. It's because pre-CBS's are worth 5-10 times that amount. It's a trickle down effect.
Please note that I use "worth" loosely here.

[paologregorio]

WRT Fenders, or Gretsches, I'd rather just buy a U.S. reissue.

...which, in the case of a Gretsch, would cost you $8K, and would be of no higher quality than a Terada-made Japanese reissue, at $2K or thereabouts.

Oh, except that the USA reissues are painted in lacquer. (snicker)

Ah, good point. I misstated my point. I meant U.S. RI wrt Fender only. I am quite happy with all of the Japanese reissue Gretsch guitars. I own three of them and plan on buying a couple more; the `55 era White Falcon with Dynasonics/De Armonds and a Bigsby, and the Western Version "Roundup" Chet Atckins solid body with De Armonds/Dynasonics and a Bigsby.

Paul, is there any reason you know of that the Terada-made Gretsches use a different finish than the U.S. custom shop made guitars?

[jingle_jangle]

It's not that the pre-CBS thing has faded that makes this guitar $8,500.00. It's because pre-CBS's are worth 5-10 times that amount. It's a trickle down effect.

Hence my original point of the originals taking the later models along with them.

Paul, the reason is that lacquer has been reincarnated by Fender as a "vintage", hence "superior" finish. Boy, talk about a sell job...I think I'll trade in the Maserati on a Model T Ford. It's a far superior car for today, what with its cable-operated brakes and leather-cone clutch. Oh, and it has a varnish finish. Alkyd (air-dry) varnish, tinted black with soot (aka "lamp black"). Why? because soot is virtually free, and alkyd varnish is cheap.

[paologregorio]

Ah, interesting. I know from previously asking you that nitro is a more delicate finish, but I've also read that some players swear by it for its purported tonal effects on guitars. I probably wouldn't know either way. I have an old Gretsch Tennessean, which has a nitro finsh, as well as three new Terada made reissues. My Japanese Reissue Gretsches sound just as good as my old one, if not better. They are definitely made much more precisely, and play wonderfully. Evidently you prefer the non-nitro finishes.

Is a nitro finish really cheaper-material-wise? It's more time consuming to apply, yes?

[antipodean]

Ah, good point. I misstated my point. I meant U.S. RI wrt Fender only.

The top-of-the line Japanese Fender RIs are great instruments, and down here they cost around half the price of a US RI, so the decision is a bit of a no-brainer. The price difference in the US isn't as pronounced, which leads me to believe our beloved Fender distributor is taking a very big slice off the top, as the Japanese product here is grey market, so no middle-man fees.

It's hard to get any rational perspective on the vintage thing - you have to be just a bit "out there" to be involved at the top end. The very concept of a $250, 000 guitar is mind-blowing. If you can cope with that, then stupid prices for sub-standard planks of wood may not seem so bizarre.

What really gets my goat is the advent of the "collector's" guitar - like the "Andy Summers Tele", the "Jeff Beck Esquire" or the "Crossroads 335" - going for $10,000 a pop. For the money, you could get an overpriced Custom Shop job, convert it to spec, and then have ample money for a rig, a backup axe and a ticket to Europe.... but some suckers out there must be buying them....

Mind you, a 4005 will set you back as much, and whilst it may be a fine bass, it was discontinued through lack of demand.

That's my rant for the week, now I'm off to be productive!