Replacing the truss rods?

[jazzstick]

I have found a beatup 76 4001 however the seller said he took it to a guitar shop and they said it needs new truss rods. if this is true is it something a good guitar guy can do? and how expensive would something like this be? he's asking $800 for it in this condition with no truss cover. to me it sounds a little risky

Brett

[rickfan60]

Old style truss rods! One of my favorite subjects. OK, If the rods are both in there they probably don't need to be replaced. A little known fact about them is they are longer than they need to be. If the ends are munged or broken, they can be cleaned up or re-trimmed and threaded. Slide 'em back in and they should work fine. They are rarely broken beyond repair. I'll need more info to steer you in the right direction but I am sure it can be put right.

[jps]

If they are broken beyond repair, Dale Fortune can make new ones for you.

[rickfan60]

Dale has a line on the flatwire? Cool, I did not know that. A friend of mine made a machine that can squeeze round stock down to the right size. You stick the round wire into one side and flat wire comes out the other. It is kind of like making metal pasta.

[jps]

A friend of mine works at our local steel mill (Mittel, used to be LTV Steel) so he can make the sauce!

[jingle_jangle]

FWIW, I purchased a special tool grinder that makes flat wire from round by grinding instead of pinching or rolling. I've been making these folded-over truss rods for my own constructions and restorations for a couple of years now.

[rickfan60]

Randy Wood makes them that way too. My friend considered that approach early on but his shop was better suited to rolling than grinding. Grinding is more precise. Randy Wood grinds the two pieces and then welds the ends to make the folded rod. My friend rolls them out in one 4 foot piece and then folds them nearly in half. Pretty much every steel mill in this end of the country once made flat wire of that size. None do today. Lapham Hickey was the last to pull it from their catalog.

[chefothefuture]

Something that has not been touched on is the rod channels in some
mid 70s Ricks are cut too deep. So the rods do not function correctly.
That is one of several reasons why you see so many over tightened rods
from that era.
It is critical that the rods bear on both the underside of the finger board as well
as the bottom of the channel.
Many repair techs are still not wise to the ways of the force

[rickaddict]

Something that has not been touched on is the rod channels in some
mid 70s Ricks are cut too deep. So the rods do not function correctly.

Ahhhh...Maybe this is why adjusting the rods on all of my old truss system Ricks seems to do little or nothing:

Adjust. Adjust again. Adjust a third time. Now install lowest tension string available, the TI flatwound.

The new truss rods on the other hand, work.

(And usually very nicely I might add.)

[rickfan60]

What John says is quite true. Other things that get in the way are debris in the truss channels and glue sqeeze out that was allowed to harden. I fixed a '76 for a friend recently where the truss would not work but fit tightly in the neck. I had to tap them out with a steel rod, the fit was so tight. A while back I made a tool out of rectangular section brass stock that I use for clearing truss channels. It disloged all kinds of stuff including curls of walnut and maple, bits of hardened glue. It took several passes to get it all out but once the channels were clear the rods began to work.

[rickaddict]

I fixed a '76 for a friend recently where the truss would not work but fit tightly in the neck.

That wouldn't happen to be a lefty Autumnglo, would it?

That's very cool that you're able to do that, Ted. Maybe one of these days I'll get around to bringing one of my truss-challenged old 4001's over for a similar treatment.

[jingle_jangle]

The new truss rods on the other hand, work.

(And usually very nicely I might add.)

The old rods work by bending backward and then compressing the neck to follow their bend, so they need tight channels to act against.

The new rods are in tension, and bend the neck backward to counter the force of the strings. Think of them as a bunch of strings bundled together and tuned to the same tension as the strings on the other side of the fretboard.

Give me the new style anyday.

[silverjet89]

The rods in my '75 seem to fit fairly tight but if the channels were too deep how would you go about fixing it so the rods would work correctly?
Just curious.

[rickfan60]

That is a good question! It depends on how far out the channels are. I might be tempted to lay down another layer or two of tape between the halves if they only slightly out. If they are too far out for that I might try running off a set of rods that are slightly thicker than normal.

Yes, the new style rods are so much easier to work with. They also have their flaws but are rarely problematic. I wish the anchored end did not press directly against the wood. A slot with a steel reinforcing plate would do nicely. I have fixed a few where the rods were overtightened and the anchor washers compress the wood about 1/4" rendering the rods useless. I suppose one could argue it is better to fail there than to pop of the fingerboard. Though a lot less likely that can happen with the new rods too.

[jps]

...Now install lowest tension string available, the TI flatwound.

TI Jazz Rounds are even lower in tension than the Jazz Flats. I have them on my July '73 4001; they do take getting used to but sound great.