Chessnut Mare, Yes or No

[tamborineman]

Chessnut Mare, personally I like the song, with some reservations.
What are your feelings? Let's discuss, disect, decend it's bass notes, vote, etc., this song and this latter period in the band's history. Who sang what? Who played what? Who wrote what?
Your input please....,

[jimk]

According to the notes included with the boxed set "There Is A Season" Chestnut Mare was co-written by Roger McGuinn and Jacques Levy, and was recorded on June 3, 1970 released on "Untitled."

Always a fan of yarns, whoppers, and tall tales, I like the song on that basis alone. It rather reminds me of that tall tale from the Old West that ends "...and then they killed me, scalped me, too."


JimK

[tamborineman]

Good points, Jim. I like how McGuinn creates a whole song out of one D cord with passing notes and a bass patern with skillfull hybrid picking. In a way a blueprint for his style through out his earlier work.

[jimk]

Your mention about McGuinn's hybrid style picking brings up a further comment from me. I've been experimenting with this style and applying it to other, non-Byrds songs that I've known. And I rather think I will keep developing the technique. I have always been a frustrated flatpicker, it is IMHO a good substitute, and also sounds quite satisfying without a backup band. In fact, I like it so well, that I think I'll go shopping for an acoustic 12 string guitar to use on stage whenever the venue seems to specify acoustic guitar only.


JimK

[rick36]

I first heard "Chestnut Mare" live in concet in 1969 - you have probaly heard the story about Roger writing the bridge to this song while touring in South America with the Chad Mitchell Trio in the early 60's. And yes, it is an example of McGuinn's Hybrid picking. On another thread, I was lambasted by a few members for suggesting that McGuinn's style was a cross between "Travis picking" and "Frailing". However, in many of the Byrds tracks through "Ballad of Easy Rider" especially, perhaps it isn't technically that, but I still believe that it is in feel. It's all about the feeling - not the technical execution. That's why Roger's style is unique.
Listen to the "Sweetheart Of The Rodeo" versions of "Pretty Polly", both the Banjo version and 12 string versions. and I think you'll see what I mean. Also, what would you call the picking styles on "I Come An Stand At Every Door" or "Stanleys Song"? Food for thought...

[tamborineman]

jimk,go for it ! I agree, it will change you as a player! Being that I was a life long Byrds fan, a few years back I worked on this style using a Telecaster, in order to see if I could do it justice before I dropped the big money on a 360-12. The result took my playing to a new level across the board. I found it easyer to execute on the Ric than an acoustic but eventually it came together. It gave me the confidence to develope an entire solo rep.I also agree that in a way it's a cross between frailing and conventional finger picking. Just for fun, play almost any Dylan song, ones not covered by the Byrds, and see what happens

[firstbassman]

I've always liked the "jumping off the cliff" musical part (and yes, I've heard Roger's story about that also many times).

But the part about a horse "being just like a wife" has always been a real icky factor for me and turned me off to the song.

Trivia # 1: CM (and Lover of the Bayou) were supposed to be songs for a Broadway show.

Trivia # 2: The live part of Untitled is the only live album (as far as I know) recorded from a concert at my alma mater - Queens College.

http://www.qc.cuny.edu/

[jimk]

jimk,go for it ! I agree, it will change you as a player! Being that I was a life long Byrds fan, a few years back I worked on this style using a Telecaster, in order to see if I could do it justice before I dropped the big money on a 360-12. The result took my playing to a new level across the board. I found it easyer to execute on the Ric than an acoustic but eventually it came together. It gave me the confidence to develope an entire solo rep.I also agree that in a way it's a cross between frailing and conventional finger picking. Just for fun, play almost any Dylan song, ones not covered by the Byrds, and see what happens

I've heard that frailing/hybrid guitar picking connection before and I don't see it. I've been a frailing style banjo player for almost 30 years, have played banjo in several old-timey string bands, and even teach the style. I think it's more like a cross between Scruggs style, and guitar pattern picking....except that it only uses as far as I can tell, one of many possible banjo rolls.

Frailing, or clawhammer as I prefer to call it doesn't make use of rolls at all. Dig this. This is frailing.




And you're right, McGuinn style picking is a bit difficult on an acoustic guitar, which is what I'm using now. But it can be done. An aside here: I was at my local favorite music store a few weeks ago dropping off my guitar for some repairs. And I picked up a Martin 12 string and did some McGuinn picking on it. Sounded lovely. I played a bit of Mr. Tambourine Man, the opening riff to Eight Miles High, and then one or two songs I have arranged in his style. Lovely, simply lovely. I really like that style, and it suits me just fine. I like that style best on a 12 string guitar.

JimK

[tamborineman]

Jim, no more frailing referances, I stand corrected.

[tamborineman]

And Mark, now we get into my `reservations' area . As you say, there are aspects of the lyrics, as well as the vocal delivery that I'm not shure about. I haven't preformed this song on any gigs for that reason. But I love the guitar parts, including the interlude.
A horse that's just like a wife... Reminds me of an old guy I new from Tyler,Tex....,never mind

[Don Miller]

A good share of the "jangle" on the recorded version are the parts Clarence White plays...He plays both acoustic flatpicking and some elctric stringbender...and at that point Roger was playing much more straight rhythm guitar, either flat or simple hybrid picking, due to Clarence's proficientcy. Clarence plays some nice stuff on Chestnut Mare....

I also felt a little ambivalent about the song...not so much the lyrics...which indeed did have their awkward moments...
(ie the "Like a wife" phrase), but I also felt the bridge interupted what otherwise was a good groove....altho the changes in tempo and meter in midsong was a popular late 60s-early 70s "jam band" construct....and at that point with the 15 minute long 8MH and otherwise loose arrangements, the later day Byrds had assumed the characteristiucs of a jam band.

[shamustwin]

I feel the "middle 8" is rather of it's time. A bit psychedelic sounding.
I feel the same sort of bit was used on the Byrds' I Wasn't Born To Follow.
That went from a folky/country rock to a psychedelic middle and back as well.
I like both songs, but the different directions these songs take in the middle serve to evoke the era in which they were written/recorded.

[37012player]

It was the last time we got to hear the Byrds with a Byrdsy RIC 12 string in the top 40.. Im guessing RM recorded the Ric with DI through a compressor ..or two? He had been playing for quite some time with a snarling sound live and on recordings through the later 60's and early 70's up to this final hit, at least too my not so good ears. I like Clarence Whites guitar playing very much, but it just dominated even the old hits when played live TOO much, it was great to here that original tone from RM again.

Love it. Acoustic and electric 12's.....a fine Swan Song to a great and influentially pioneering band coming to the end of an amazing creative carear.

Si......

[mcd220]

Nice Banjo playing, Jim!

Really smooth on those rolls.

Christian

[jimk]

Nice Banjo playing, Jim!

Really smooth on those rolls.

Christian

Sorry Christian, that isn't me in the video. I don't think I have any video clips in any format of me playing banjo.
JimK