Set up advice

roch · Post by **roch** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:14 am

I have a 425 and have had trouble setting it up so it will stay in tune. I am not much of a guitar tech( I can tune though) so I won't fart around with the bridge. I have had a couple of stores try to set it up for me but it doesn't seem to stay in tune.

What would the best type of strings to use(gauge)? Would it make a difference? Are these gutars notorious for not staying in tune?

I like to use it for recording in my home studio, but, if the dam thing won't tune, I may want toget rid of it.

Any advice???

Roch

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:47 am

Welcome Roch. Please give us some additional information. What year was your 425 made? Does it in fact have a vibrato (without which it is really a 420)? What is its condition? Are the tuners original? Just what do you mean it won't stay in tune? Does the problem apply to all string or just some of them? Do you have a closeup photos of this instrument?

roch · Post by **roch** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:02 am

Thanks for your prompt reply. The serial# is OC 1843. I believe it is early 70's. You would probably know better than me. There is no vibrato, so, where does that leave me? It does have the original tuners(I am assuming, again)Kluson Deluxe. The guitar is sound, with various paint chipping. The neck seems straight. The G string seems to never be in tune( as hard as I try). I will try to supply photos in the near future.

I love this guitar, but, if I can't figure out how to make it sound decent I can't use it. It is the only electric guitar I own.

Thanks again
Roch

sneakers · Post by **sneakers** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:57 am

Any guitar is fixable. Sounds like an intonation problem to me. Here's some technical checks you can make for us to help you with your problem:

1. Is the neck straight? - site down the neck
2. Are the strings new?
3. Check the intonation - chimed note on each
string at the 12th fret equals the fretted
note on the 12th fret.

If all the items above are OK, the only other thing that might be going on is fingering technique. Players can actually pull or push strings to the point where they're out of tune. If you're primarily an acoustic guitar player and you pick up an electric guitar you could be forcing the strings too hard, bending them out of tune. Have someone else play it to get a second opinion.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:07 am

Thanks Roch. If it is only the G string, then intonation would seem to be the issue. Is it the original single saddle bridge? If this is the case then intonation is slightly more difficult. Please report back with regard to the intonation.

A straight neck is important. If you hold down the low E string at the first and 17th fret, do you see a lot of daylight between the string and the fretboard? Is your intonation more sharp or flat? I am betting the former.

I agree with Joe that you have every reason to expect a playable guitar after the proper adjustments are made.

Also, where do you live. We might get a contact luthier or player for you.

roch · Post by **roch** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 9:57 am

The guitar has a single saddle bridge.(All one piece with an adjustment screw at each end, right?) The neck appears to be straight. There is not a large space(daylight) between the fretboard and the string. The intonation does seem to be flat.

I live in a small community about an hour drive north-west of Ottawa Ont. Canada.

I have had guitar players play and they have said intonation, but, as I have said before, I had it set(supposedly) and the problem persists. The problem could very well by the guy playing it(me).

Roch

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:16 am

Unless you are handy with files and have experience with set up, I would shy away from making your own adjustments to this saddle.

Tell us about the pitch of the G string at the 12th fret versus the 12th fret harmonic. Is the G string note at the 12th fret sharp compared to the 12th fret harmonic? Is it a plain or wound string and what is the gauge of the string you are using.

If it is sharp, it is possible to go to the next lower gauge and note the change. Still sharp, drop down the gauge again and so on. All of the strings will affect the climate of the bridge, however, this is one way to get closer to having it in tune.

If you have an electronic tuner, tune the instrument to concert pitch, then play up the fret board and see at what point the string is out. Then let us know what you find. The problem is not you. You just need to make some simple adjustments.

Ottawa Rickenbacker owners, unite!

vinylrec · Post by **vinylrec** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:25 am

Put a wound G string on it. That should remedy an intonation problem.

PS. You got any pictures of the guitar? I'd love to see it

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:44 am

A fair point Grant. It is likely that a wound G will result in an improvement.

beatcomber · Post by **beatcomber** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:12 pm

I am having a similar problem with a '69 Electro ES-17, which is essentially the same guitar.

i found that the guitar intonates better with flatwounds, especially with a wound G. (I prefer the Thomastik Infelds.) I was using .011's, but the G is still slightly out of whack, so I am waiting to receive a set of .012s in the mail. I will report back on the results.

BTW, Roch, your guitar was made in March 1975, and is technically a model 420.

beatcomber · Post by **beatcomber** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:18 pm

One other thing - is the guitar not staying in tune (ie: is the tuning slipping) or does it just never sound like its tuned properly?

If it's the latter that we're talking about, it sounds like an intonation problem.

If the guitar refuses to stay in tune, that's an entirely different issue. To remedy that, I recommend 1.) using a heavier string gauge and 2.) make sure your are stringing the guitar properly. You shouldn't just insert the string through the hole on the tuner peg and start winding! There is a method of folding back the string so that it gets locked when the string is wound around the post. I know that there's a website somewhere that gives detailed illustrations on how to do this - can anyone provide the link? Otherwise, go find a book about guitar maintanence, and see if that information is there.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:22 pm

It should be obvious by now that there are many variables and that diagnosing the problem from afar is challenging. With that said, here are my comments.

I have a July 1981 (UG) model 460, the deluxe version of the 450, with the same one-piece bridge and original Kluson Deluxe doubleline tuners. This guitar not only stays in tune, but also has superb intonation (electronic tuner +/- 5 cents).

I made sure the neck had the right relief and action when I restrung it with a fresh set of D'Aquisto Signature Series Flat Wound Electric Jazz Strings, #120 (0.012, 0.016, 0.022, 0.032, 0.042, 0.052). I am most pleased with these strings - they have a great jingle-jaangle down at the bridge pickup and strong (nearly booming) low-end response at the neck pickup.

Roch, which way do the strings go out of tune, flat or sharp? If they are all consistently flat, the tuners may be a bit worn and slipping inside (I am assuming that you have a good number of windings around the posts to prevent the strings from slipping there, and that you are tuning from below-pitch to pitch to prevent slack at the tuner). One other consideration is that a previous owner may have turned the bridge around; it shouldn't make a difference, but one never knows.

roch · Post by **roch** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:52 pm

The g string seems to be flat. I will try new strings. I never really tried specific strings. just basically bought on price. I did change them regularily, though. I will take all of this advice into consideration and hopefully I can get results.

Thanks to all who offered help. This, by far, has been the most helpful board I have been on. I have frequented drum boards, home recording boards, other guitar boards and have never recieved such genuine intrest and concern.

Thanks again......

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:25 pm

Roch: You have a Rickenbacker. It has to be right!

beatcomber · Post by **beatcomber** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:02 am

I received my .012 flatwound Thomastik Infelds in the mail yesterday and immediately put them on my 420-style Electro.

I have found that the .012 TI strings are only slightly less pliable than the .011s, and they help improve the intonation - particularly the G - quite a bit. It's still not spot on, but close enough for rock'n'roll, as they say. Who knows what gauge the bridge was made to work with? Probably .013s, since it's a '60s design!

I should point out that if you are thinking of switching to flatwounds, they will take some getting used to. They are less slinky than roundwounds (even the unwound strings), and the wound G string may feel particularly strange at first. That said, if you are aiming for a '60s or Beatle-y sound, flats are the only way to go, IMO.