Type of Pickup Coil wire in 50's-60's Rics?

[ocduff]

Hi folks -

I've searched the forum far and wide - and am double posting this question in both this, and the pickup forum.

I can't find any solid, verified information on exactly the type of wire used in Ric's and how they were wound.

From what I know, the pickups were most likely wound with 44 gauge wire. Very fine stuff. Also, I understand they were wound on the weekends? Interesting. Also, I am assuming that they were handwound.

It seems uncertain whether it was Formvar insulated wire, or Plain Enamel. Both common for the day. Of course, lots of other types were used - all which yield a different tone.

Also - it seems outputs varied quite a bit - I'm assuming 3.8K for late 50's, then 7.5K for mid 60's. Anyone have the actual numbers from the original pickups? Please let me know if there are any other sources I should refer to.

Thanks in advance!

Owen

[jingle_jangle]

Owen this would be a great task--assembling all this data, as Fender afficionados have for Strats, for instance. It's a cataloguing job that's long overdue, too. I'll bet that most of this knowledge exists, spread among members of this forum.

[ocduff]

I was thinking the same thing. Real, solid, quantifiable data. It's been done for other guitar brands - I'd be happy to help put it together - or at least get a dialogue started. This is not meant to disparage "reissue" pickups, only to find out the facts about the originals. It seems the data I've found often contradicts itself. And it's not a trifling point, I don't think. I think Ric pickups, overall, are pretty darn good. And I think the reissues are very authentic. But since there are so many folks trying to get all those details just right, it seems a final conclusion could be made about "correctness" regarding pickups.

Of course, pickups are always that mysterious thing - always changing due to suppliers, and often the dirty work in guitar factories. Any one know who was winding for Ric way back when, and what sort of machines they used? I've seen all types of pickups - Ric's, Mosrite's, Fender's, Guild's, Gibson's, and the lack of continuity between them always sparks a good, healthy discussion.

I also want to find actual pole length, diameter, material. As well as bobbin dimensions and material. And then coil wire, method of winding, and insulation type. Would also be interesting to take notes on reissue pickups, and modern Ric pickups. Lots of the time with these little details, we're playing the telephone game with info. Would be nice to nail it down, remove all the mystery.

Not a small order!

[soundmasterg]

You have to wonder also if RIC really wants this info out. I mean sure people can gather the info, but the more that is unknown, the harder it is for someone to copy their products too. Since RIC has always protected their trademarks, I would assume that they would also be more tight-lipped about these type of details than say someone like Fender would be?

greg

[wints]

For those of us who remember the old days, and look at the rest of this wonderful site, we have this:
http://www.rickresource.com/rrp/johnhall.html

Subject: Rewinding Toaster Pickups

Date: 1998/07/10

Question: What happens if the reissues are simply unwound to the DC resistance of the originals, obviously keeping the reissue #46 gauge wire as opposed to the #42 of the 60s instruments?

Answer: I'm going to quote from a message I previously posted on this topic: I don't know about the late 50's . . . I'm not going to destroy one of those pickups to find out . . . but from the early 60's until today we've only used #44 wire. If you have measured otherwise, you're looking at a rewound pickup. The modern reissues measure about 11.2K with a lab grade ohmmeter. As I said before, you'll find genuine vintage pickups which have a variety of specs . . . sometimes as high as 16K and as low as 7K ohms DC resistance. The modern one is indeed a compromise between output and a particular type of sound, but not any greater of a compromise than many of the original, unspecified or less-than-consistent units. Now let me say it again . . . SINCE THE EARLY SIXTIES, WE HAVE USED NOTHING BUT #44 MAGNET WIRE. If it's not #44 on your pickup, it's NOT FACTORY WOUND. We have never used #42 or #46 wire as stated. During the vintage pickup "redesign" phase, we tested close to 100 pickups fro a variety of parameters and the current product is essentially an average or composite of all these units. But beyond this, we even looked through all of our old production and purchasing records to make sure we are using materials of the genuine specs. I can tell you that again that nothing other than #44 wire has been purchased, although several different insulation materials and other wire coatings have been used through the years.

[ocduff]

Thanks for the replies. Lots of info out there - and thanks for that link. While informative, "I don't know about the 50's..." came up several times. So I still don't feel the subject has been completely edified. I sure would like to get my hands on a few original 50's toasters. My suspicion - and I may be wrong - but I suspect the 50's 3.8K output pickups were wound with 42 gauge. I just can't imagine why, at that low a resistance, why 44 gauge would be chosen - they must sound incredibly weak. There are so many references to the employees winding pickups in those days "winding the bobbin full of wire". That wouldn't happen with 44 gauge until about 10,000 turns - yeilding like 15K or so, perhaps. And then, 3.8K could be achieved with only 2,000 turns or so. Every bobbin created by companies in the old days, from Fender to Gibson, to Guild to Mosrite, to Gretsch - the bobbins were always filled with wire. They were designed to be, and a specific wire guage was chosen for each bobbin. Of course, this rule may not have always been followed. It may well have been 44 gauge, and most likely was. No doubt 44 was used later when the outputs went above 7K in the 60's.

There is so much conflicting information out there - not by any entity in particular, but just in general. I'm just trying to satisfy my own curiousity. Also, I've heard a lot of the old Rickenbackers from the 50's and they really sounded different than the reissues I've owned. I'm not going to make my own conclusions and experiences and state them as gospel, just try and figure out the 50's toasters.

My c58 should be arriving any day now. I'm sure at some point I'll be fiddling with the pickups. I'll be searching for some originals too. I don't think Rickenbacker has to worry about anyone copying their pickups. There's so little demand, and I don't think Ric owners swap out pickups like Fender owners do. That said, if Fender handwound the pickups in their $4000 Masterbuilt guitars, then no one would be swapping them out. I just don't think it's economically feasible for a company to do so, and thus, creates an aftermarket for such parts.

[jingle_jangle]

Owen, you've got the Rick CEO, who has access to factory records going back to the Jurassic era, and personal experience of 30 years, saying that they have never used anything but #44. Why question this?

It does occur to me that back in the Early Days, things might have been done that don't make sense to us now, but they were done that way, they worked, and they gave us some fabulous instruments, quirks and all. Maybe they could have used, or should have used #42 wire, but they didn't, and that's from the source. Source material trumps speculation.

[ocduff]

Hi Paul -

I apologize if my questioning is cavalier, but I carefully worded my query so as not to offend anyone. I think that Mr. Hall's answers may satisfy you, but as noted, he was quoted as saying he "didn't know" about the 50's era pups. And other data by others, who may not be as qualified as the CEO, but definitely well qualified to make judgements regarding wire gauge, have findings of their own. It's not fair to say their findings aren't valid, just because they don't run the current company.

I am taking advantage of this open forum to discuss this contrasting data. Perhaps it's not my place to question this or rectify it. But rather than discourage open dialogues, I think they should be encouraged. That said, perhaps it was unfair of me to hypothesize - I don't care what the answer is. My reason for posting was merely to address the conflicting info, see if anyone perhaps with a pair of 50's toasters and some dial calipers could shed some light on this subject. Tall order, sure, but worth a shot. I ask that, because if there was a patent on these (public domain by now) it most likely wouldn't list wire gauge. And I don't have the patent or the original PUPs. Or Mr. Hall's access to records.

These were products that were made a looong time ago, as far as production techniques and record keeping goes. I'm not trying to disprove anyone or anything - I am merely toying with this disparity of information. Only a cursory reading of my post would yield any discussion about integrity of CEO's or their companies or their current product line up.

[jingle_jangle]

Not a cursory reading of your post, Owen...a cursory reading of JH's remarks--I did not register "since the early '60s". My apologies to you, as the '50s stuff is your field of interest and there is precious little there. I've got a couple of '50s guitars in the shop right now...guess I'll get out the dial calipers soon.

[soundmasterg]

It would certainly be interesting to find out about the specs of the 50's pickups Paul. I've heard they were a lesser DC resistance, which if so, and the bobbin is moderately full, would seem to indicate a different wire such as #42 or #43 having been used. It would certainly change the sound of the pickups if that is true. Same with the differing insulations used as Mr. Hall noted in his post from 1998. If you do take a look at the pickups, please note the color of the wire as that can sometimes indicate the insulation type. If you post the dimensions of the wire from using the dial caliper, I'm sure someone can figure out what gauge the wire is and extrapolate the number of turns used to wind the coil with some margin of error.

I've heard from quite a number of people I respect in the industry that they have seen #43 on RIC pickups in the past, though if they were rewound or not when they saw them, I have no idea.

Greg

[ocduff]

It would be interesting for someone with a genuine set of unmolested 50's Toasters, to just take some measurements and clear this issue up. Or even a broken old toaster, that is original. It may take a while for it to happen, but this thread is here for anyone who does test one out. Like I said, it may well be 44 gauge in the 50's toasters - but as posted in other threads, a lot of the pickup makers who've seen original vintage 50's toasters over the years have noted that it was 42 or 43 gauge in them. And Mr. Hall said he wasn't sure of the guage or the type of insulation used back then, or the wire gauge. It's probably safe to assume it is 44 gauge, until proven otherwise.

I think the 60's part of this thread is answered - it was 44 gauge. That makes sense for lots of reasons, plus there are records and incidences of 44 gauge "sightings". It also makes sense because of the relatively high outputs of those pickups - 7.5K or so, about 6000 turns to 44 gauge. And the bobbin's were probably close to full at that point. 42 gauge, wound to 3.8-5K would be like 6000 turns or so. A full bobbin. Anyway, I'm hypothesizing again. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Only an original 50's pickup will tell the real story.

[jingle_jangle]

OK, I have a set of '58 toasters, which I've just unwrapped far enough to measure the wire.

Definitely AWG 44 (.002). I've used a micrometer with the preload set on light, not a caliper, which would tend to crush the soft copper and distort the reading.

The jacketing enamel is green in color. I can't measure the resistance on either; they're both shorted and give a continuity beep.

[soundmasterg]

That sounds like plain enamel Paul. If someone wanted to recreate those, they could unwind and count the turns, though I wouldn't recommend that unless you had a machine winder or it would take a hella long time to do! Too bad they're shorted....I know a couple someones who could rewind them and do a good job and get original specs back. If you're interested, then PM me.

Greg

[soundmasterg]

Forgot to add.

Owen,

the ~7.4k toasters wound with 44 gauge don't have a full bobbin, so the 60's ones wouldn't either if wound to around there. You can fit upwards of 12k on a toaster bobbin with 44 gauge, and some of the high gains are around 15k and use the same bobbin. You can fit about 9.5k on the bobbin with heavy build 43 gauge formvar.

Paul,

sometimes you have to sand the enamel off to get a reading with the meter. If you're checking at the coil wires itself, then get some 600 grit sandpaper and carefully sand the ends of both wires and then see if you get a reading. If you're checking at the leads that are normally soldered into the guitar and it is reading open there, then the coil has a break somewhere most likely.

Greg

[ocduff]

Paul -

Awesome - thanks for clarifying that. 44 gauge it is. I feel better now. Intersting that the wire is green.

Danelectro used a 38 gauge green wire. I've never been able to find it. The green could be oxidation too. You might try taking off a few hundred wraps, sanding off the insulation and testing again. Usually a coil is broken right on the outside, or shorted out to the magnets on the inside.

Plain Enamel is a dark purple/brown, maybe a shade of copper. Formvar is a dark copper color. Polysol is a light copper color.

Thanks again for doing that Paul - I think it definitively takes guess work like mine out of the equation.