Here we go again

Vintage, Modern, V & C series, Fretless, Signature & Special Editions

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jingle_jangle
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Re: Here we go again

Post by jingle_jangle »

jwr2 wrote:I fail to understand why people here hate copies of Rics, but don't hate copies of Fenders or Gibsons or Hofners ... etc. I understand why Rickenbacker enforces their trademark. But why do members here also jump on that bandwagon? Nobody gets upset if Sandberg makes a p-bass or if Lakland makes a jazz bass or if Sadowski makes a Fender style bass. After all ... it is all the same exact thing. If we are not hypocrites then those who hate Ric copies should also hate all copies. As for me I don't hate copies.

Jeff, it is most definitely NOT the same thing, and I'm surprised that with the number of times this issue comes up, and from the same posts that come up explaining what the difference, that somehow it still hasn't made itself plain.

1. RIC trademarks and trade dress have stood the test of time. Rickenbacker (and Electro String) were reasonably diligent, and showed terrific foresight, in protecting their designs early on. They are, in fact, required to act in defending these marks against all thieves. To not do so is considered grounds for abandonment of the mark.

2. A person becomes a "thief" when he appropriates someone else's property for his own uses. Intellectual property--patents, copyrights, trademarks, and other categories--are registered with the Patent Office in the USA and other countries, for the purpose of protecting against just such thievery. A person who steals a registered intangible (like a trademark) in broad daylight, without any threat of violence is as much a thief as the guy who steals a new Corvette from somebody else's garage in the dead of night.

3. Fender and Gibson (and some others) never took the time or had the foresight to register many of their earlier designs, and the result is the extreme proliferation of copycat designs. This is because they are fair game for copycats.

4. It's legal to make a Strat or Tele body. It's not legal to make a Rick body, neck with headstock, toaster pickup, "R" tailpiece, and other protected items without license. Notice how Allparts and Warmoth sell licensed Fender necks? It's not the neck, per se, but the headstock design that Fender did register, and people are thus told, basically, to stay away. Fender's legal team has a group of lawyers who do nothing but enforce violations on the things they have registered, and seek to register old and new features in order to protect their stake as best they can.

5. That's called "closing the barn door after the horse has escaped".
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deaconblues
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Re: Here we go again

Post by deaconblues »

A very aptly named thread!

I think we should commission some of the more knowledgeable experts on RRF to write an FAQ, or Frequently Posted Arguments, or something like that.
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rickenbrother
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Re: Here we go again

Post by rickenbrother »

I'm sick of seeing copies of ANY instrument. Geez, how many P-bass, J-bass, Strat, etc. copies do we need? I like Gibson and Fender as well as many other makes of guitars, but Ricks are the instruments that I have a passion for. So I hate Rick copies most of all, besides it being illegal to make copies of Ricks. If Gibson and Fender also trademarked their designs from the start, their really wouldn't be much of a discussion. Not having copies would be better accepted by the masses because the "big guys" couldn't ever be legally copied.

Didn't Gibson recently file a lawsuit against Activion for copying a device that simulates participation in a concert by palying a musical instrument?
Didn't Gibson file a lawsuit that asserted a trademark infringement against PRS?
If a manufacturer is legally within their right to guard their trademarks, patents and copywrites, they should do so.

I guess somehow Fender figured a way of making money on copy parts by granting licenses to companies like Warmoth that make copies of their parts.

Lakland basses really had my attention until they started making P and J bass copies. I don't desire a Lakland as much anymore.
JETGLO should officially be renamed JETGLO ROCKS! :-)
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ajish4
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Re: Here we go again

Post by ajish4 »

blueflamerick wrote:I hate Fender copies. I hate Fender originals too.

:lol:

Just a FYI, this seems like it might apply here....

http://finance.comcast.net/www/news.htm ... 008821.xml
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deargdoom
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Re: Here we go again

Post by deargdoom »

The reason why most copies exist is because they are cheaper versions of named brands that most people can't afford, so if someone wants a Strat or Rick style guitar but can't afford the real thing they go for the knock off, most guitarists at some stage have done it. Just the way it is, as long as they aren't calling the fakes RIckenbacker, or embezzling the proceeds in criminal activity, it's fine with me.

A RIckenbacker will most likely not be someone's first guitar but a fake mught be.
gshadoan
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Re: Here we go again

Post by gshadoan »

Copies Suck. I personally have no problem with copies, but "I" think they suck. Not because they are copies, because they suck. Simple.
I have no dog in this fight, but the only problem I have with RIC(tm) copies, is that apparently it is up to the company (RIC in this case, John Hall et .al) to enforce the tradmark. This takes time and labor AWAY from making/developing product. If there were some other means to enforce the "laws" in regards to tradmark, which would free up the small business owner from the burdon of policeing the airwaves, then I wouldn't even blink. I would still just look away. Funny how we can go to jail for smoking a joint, but not for stealing IP. It's not like these factories are in allies, moving around, and the "law" can't find them.
Some of the original japanese 4001 knock-offs are pretty cool, but they are copies, they suck, and nothing will ever change that. Some of these more recent look alikes, are just butt ugly, as apposed to being copies that just suck. Probably very nice instruments, but they are never gonna have the mojo of a REAL Ric. The fact is that "Everybody knows, the world is full of stupid people",(tm Rodger Kline) and as long as these cheaters/theives make them, they will sell them. It's just not fair to RIC that they have to spend their time dealing with it. It's never gonna go away.

An F.A.Q. may be helpful, but more so is open conversation. If it's a subject that you don't care to respond to, then dont.

Jeff, while you and I often stand together alone on issues here on the forum, I must respectfully disagree on the statement about RIC 5 stringers. The 4004CII5 I have is absolutly amazing. It almost reads my mind. I want this sound, makes that sound :D Although I did change out the pickups, I LOVE the bass. The best 5 string bass I could possibly imagine.
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Here we go again

Post by jingle_jangle »

can-of-worms.jpg
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Here we go again

Post by jingle_jangle »

deargdoom wrote:The reason why most copies exist is because they are cheaper versions of named brands that most people can't afford, so if someone wants a Strat or Rick style guitar but can't afford the real thing they go for the knock off, most guitarists at some stage have done it. Just the way it is, as long as they aren't calling the fakes RIckenbacker, or embezzling the proceeds in criminal activity, it's fine with me.

A RIckenbacker will most likely not be someone's first guitar but a fake mught be.
It might be fine with you, but it is not with the law. I cannot understand why anyone would endorse thievery. And, yes, "they" (the folks who make these copies) ARE "embezzling money in a criminal activity". They are breaking the law. They are stealing someone else's idea and design, and using it to make money for themselves.

How difficult can this be for people to understand?

When my ideas are patented, and then get ripped off by someone with a profit motive stronger than their conscience, I go after them. It takes time and money to come up with a patentable item. I'm not interested in giving away shares to someone...it's food on my family's table.

There is no defensible position on this topic except to support prosecution in order to keep thievery at bay.
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edski
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Re: Here we go again

Post by edski »

jingle_jangle wrote:
can-of-worms.jpg
ewwwwwwwwwwww.......
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Here we go again

Post by jingle_jangle »

Har?
nukebass
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Re: Here we go again

Post by nukebass »

(to beat a dead horse... :mrgreen: )

I think people here tend to argue more than just the legality of copying the designs. Just because Fender and Gibson didn't do enough to protect their trademark (or trademark their designs) doesn't make it right to copy them. Sure, it may be legal, but that doesn't make it right. People argue whether it's right or wrong to do many legal things.

I agree with Joey that we are all passionate about Rickenbackers and that's why the debate gets heated here. As I've read these things about copies and lawsuit basses, I've come to dislike copies by anybody. My first bass was a P-bass copy (a Yamaha BB-300), but I didn't know better and it was a very nice bass for the price. I had always assumed either that guitar designs were fair game or that a license fee or something was being paid to use the designs. Beyond that, I never put much thought into it other than I liked the design. (Of course, the BB-300 made me want a Fender, which I eventually got [a MIM] and will hopefully be able to afford an American one at some point down the road in addition to my Ricks :mrgreen: )

This forum is very educational and influential, usually for the good!
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deargdoom
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Re: Here we go again

Post by deargdoom »

When a popular piece of cultural product reaches a certain saturation point, it gets copied simple as that, by then hopefully it doesn't dent the original manufacturer too much and in the case of Rickenbacker that seems to be the case. They're still going, making the same basses. A copy is not the original, most people know that and only buy them if they can't afford the real thing.
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Re: Here we go again

Post by jakeox »

deargdoom wrote:When a popular piece of cultural product reaches a certain saturation point, it gets copied simple as that, by then hopefully it doesn't dent the original manufacturer too much and in the case of Rickenbacker that seems to be the case. They're still going, making the same basses. A copy is not the original, most people know that and only buy them if they can't afford the real thing.
The law is the law. Nevermind that your argument ignores the many fakes passed off as the real deal (and the people fooled by them). Nevermind that your argument is a questionable assertion with little to back it up, for that matter. It sure isn't "simple as that". Even ignoring all that, you're not addressing the fact that this is the law.
jwr2

Re: Here we go again

Post by jwr2 »

Everybody here seems to love my copy basses ...
fb5 030.jpg
p-bassr523.jpg
Bass5-0020.JPG
But if one of them had a Ric shaped body people here would hate it and turn me in to the Ric police.

Either it is wrong to make copies or it isn't. If anything it should be even more wrong to make cpoies of Fender and Gibson because they didn't enforce their trademark.

But you know Gibson and Fender sell a lot more instruments and make a lot more money. Perhaps their model of trademark enforcement is more profitable.
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Re: Here we go again

Post by jakeox »

jwr2 wrote:Either it is wrong to make copies or it isn't.
That's actually pretty clearly not true.
jwr2 wrote:If anything it should be even more wrong to make cpoies of Fender and Gibson because they didn't enforce their trademark.
Er ... wha?
jwr2 wrote:But you know Gibson and Fender sell a lot more instruments and make a lot more money. Perhaps their model of trademark enforcement is more profitable.
Then why do they enforce the trademarks that they have? And what about the fact that they sold tons more instruments than RIC before there were any copies? That's a pretty large leap.

I'm not sure why I'm getting sucked into this. I really don't care that deeply about the issue. Heck, I owned a Rick copy for many years and played the heck out of it. I think I just get worked up about faulty logic.
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