David Crosby's Harmonies?

[clanhelio]

I've always loved David Crosby's harmonies, but I've never quite understood what's so special about them. What exactly is he doing?

There is no books that I can find that explain this, and all I've gathered from the internet is that "Crosby was largely responsible for the innovative combination of fourth and fifth high harmony parts." But what gets me, is that the basics of vocal harmony tell you to avoid 4th/5th harmonies and that they give you a gregorian chant effect. But then why does it sound so good on byrds recordings, if this is true?

Maybe I'm missing something and have no idea what I'm talking about, but thats why I'm posting this

[admin]

Welcome to the RickResource Forum, Dylan. To my way of thinking, Crosby broke all the rules during the Byrds' days and in so doing found a uniqueness that set the group apart from the expected. He and his family were insterested in madrigal vocals and his use of this style and so it came natural for him.

In some of his recordings the harmony stnds out so much that many listeners sing it as if it was the melody. An example of this is Mr. Tambourine Man.

[janglebox]

Welcome to the RickResource Forum, Dylan. To my way of thinking, Crosby broke all the rules during the Byrds' days and in so doing found a uniqueness that set the group apart from the expected. He and his family were insterested in madrigal vocals and his use of this style and so it came natural for him.

In some of his recordings the harmony stnds out so much that many listeners sing it as if it was the melody. An example of this is Mr. Tambourine Man.

Welcome Dylan. Peter, that's a terrific observation about how listeners perceive Byrd melodies — I agree completely. All I would add to Dylan's initial question is that Crosby never stays with a fourth or fifth throughout a song; he tends to jump around — thirds, fourths, fifths. A brilliantly intuitive harmonizer, that's part of what makes his singing so unique. Many a band attempting to tackle Byrds material has found the singing impossible to replicate exactly.

[sloop_john_b]

But what gets me, is that the basics of vocal harmony tell you to avoid 4th/5th harmonies and that they give you a gregorian chant effect. But then why does it sound so good on byrds recordings, if this is true?

More specifically, "parallel" 5ths give you that chant-like sound - a 5th consistently moving along with a root. If Crosby is jumping around between different intervals, he's probably doing a good job of avoiding that - I've never heard anything remotely chant-like in a Byrds tune!

[charlyg]

I saw in an interview with Graham Nash, that he said David's claim to fame was "middle" harmony, the hardest to do, and also the hardest to distinguish in the overall sound. That is what made him special, at least according to Graham.

[admin]

Charly: I think the middle harmony example by Nash of Crosby's unique offering to the Byrds is an excellent one. Often times when trying to cover Byrds' songs it is difficult to get the vocals just right for this very reason. The harmony is hard to hear in the mix.

[admin]

I've never heard anything remotely chant-like in a Byrds tune!

John: I would be interested in your appraisal of this clip from a Byrds' recording to see if you find it enchanting in any way.

[janglebox]

I've never heard anything remotely chant-like in a Byrds tune!

Actually, the latter-day Byrds did an extended Buddhist chant ("nam-myoho-renge-kyo") at the end of Well Come Back Home on "Untitled".
But I know what you mean.

[admin]

Yes, a good example, Steve.

[kvalois]

For my two cents:

As a 14 year-old kid who became enthralled with the sound of the Byrds in 1965, I now know that it was "easier" to hear the great effect of Crosby's harmony over the AM radio and in a MONO format!!!!

There is, of course, a Byrds' CD of "The Original Singles" that closely replicates this AM sound!!! Here, McGuinn's Rickenbacker 12-string CHIMES beyond belief-- and Crosby's harmonies SOAR!!!

To show what I'm saying, just play any STEREO version of "Mr. Tambourine Man (on any of the various CDs). If you totally ISOLATE one side, you'll hear ONLY McGuinn and Crosby singing. AND, I think you will be shocked to hear that Crosby's harmonies do NOT soar as much.

On the AM side of things-- along with the 45 record, the mix is different and Crosby's harmonies are MORE majestic.

Karl

[janglebox]

To show what I'm saying, just play any STEREO version of "Mr. Tambourine Man (on any of the various CDs). If you totally ISOLATE one side, you'll hear ONLY McGuinn and Crosby singing. AND, I think you will be shocked to hear that Crosby's harmonies do NOT soar as much.

Hmm, I'm not sure Karl. On the newest box set, I hear the vocals panned both left (vocals/bass/tambourine/click track?) and right (vocals/12-string/Gretsch/drums). I don't hear the vocals completely isolated. If sugarmegs.com ever gets back to streaming bootlegs, one can hear on Unsurpassed Masters just the original isolated vocal track — and the McGuinn/Crosby harmony sounds pretty glorious to me.

[kvalois]

Hi, Steve:

To tell you the truth, I hadn't checked the new "There is a Season" version-- but, I'm sure you're right!!! I was speaking about the "re-mastered" album, "Mr. Tambourine Man." At least on my stereo-- and it's a good one-- I get almost all "vocals" on the left channel.

Of course, I agree with you that the Crosby harmonies are "glorious," but, to my ears at least, the MONO version mix of the song-- more echo or reverb?-- is the one that I fell in love with in 1965.

Interestingly, on AM radio here in Connecticut, there have been frequent commercials for the upcoming Chris Hillman concert in Simsbury, CT-- and this same Hartford AM radio station that I used to listen to in the 1960s has been playing "Mr. T. Man" before the announcer comes on with the details for the Hillman concert. In fact, when I was driving and that CLASSIC McGuinn Rickenbacker intro started up, I swear that it SOUNDED just like I remembered the song on AM radio 43 years ago!!!

[beefandbones]

I've got all their original albums in mono, and I can tell you that they do sound great! The Byrds really sound like a rock band in mono, much more so than in stereo. In stereo, they still sound great, but it's a little less punchy and I hear a lot more folk in the rock. Sundazed put out a nice double LP of their original mono single mixes called "The Columbia Singles 1965-67" that's well worth the dough if you have a record player. My only complaint is that they included withdrawn or never issued singles as well, which means there are like five songs between their second and third Columbia singles. Anyway, the single mixes are fantastic!

Also, didn't McGuinn and Clark sing in unison, with Crosby frequently singing the harmonies? Crosby is a great harmonist for sure, but he's blessed with a voice that is naturally stunningly beautiful, and that's what really makes his harmonies stand out, in my opinion.

[firstbassman]

Crosby is a great harmonist for sure, but he's blessed with a voice that is naturally stunningly beautiful, and that's what really makes his harmonies stand out, in my opinion.

+ 1

Yeah, there's just something very unusual and appealing about his voice even when he sings a melody solo.

[jimk]

Also, didn't McGuinn and Clark sing in unison, ...?

For the most part, yes. Listen to "Chimes of Freedom" and you can hear Gene Clark singing the baritone part on the chorus, making it a genuine trio.

And then there's this clip. Listen to the second chorus, when Croz's and Gene's mics are finally turned up. You can make out Gene's lower harmony part. Too bad this arrangement was lost on the commerical recording.