330/6 string spacing... hard to get used to it?

[scotty]

I'm inclined to think that it isn't the instrument's fault so much as it is the responsibility of the player do adapt to the instrument. A guitar is what it is. People are adaptable.

JimK

JimK says it all here guys.

[freshmattyp]

Sorry, no amount of technique or adaptability is going to make my sausage fingers work on a 300 series 12 string. Just won't happen. Put me in the camp of people who pray for a 360/660 hybrid.

[kiramdear]

Kira buy one of each a 600 series and 300 i suggest a 620 maybe and a 360 for comfort.600 series has lots of sustain and bright tones and the 360 is a great versatile guitar also.Ahhh sod it just buy a 330 too,why not! Buy buy buy this forum will have that effect on you. Whatever you decide im sure will be right for you.

That's the spirit!! Ah, but if that were an option I'd need a sugar daddy and a warehouse. I'd love to have one of everything.

[holland]

Guy's,
If your struggling with the string spacing on your 12 string rick's take wooly's advice send your guitars to Mark arnquist. He recently did my V67 and now it practically plays it self!

I have normal size fingers and was so fed up fighting with it i used to hang it on the wall. I can not understand why they don't come out of the factory set up like this and really resent having to spend hundreds of dollars to bring the guitar to an acceptable level.

Here are a few of the pics Mark took of it while he was working on it.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... PACING.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... stfret.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... nplace.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... newnut.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... eAfter.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... letion.jpg

[DesertDawg]

Well, Holland, it looks to me that your guy has done what Martin does on their acoustics and spread out the strings at the nut so that they are no longer parallel to the edges of the fretboard. That's fine if it works for you but a lot of us would be poking strings over the edges of the fretboard, especially on the bass side and probably muffling chords on the treble side as the fleshy part of opur hand caught the high strings near the nut.

That's why they don't come out of the factory that way. Anyway, if it "plays itself" for you, that's great. Just don't resent the rest of us who would NOt like that style of setup!

[BlueAngel]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... eAfter.jpg

That's exactly what I did to my 360 as well - both the increase of the pair spacing to the maximum allowed by the neck width, and the slight narrowing of the individual pairs to make it closer to a 6-string. I found it made a difference but still not enough, so I sold the guitar. I'd given up on Rickenbacker 12-strings entirely until I discovered the 660/12.

I really have great respect for you guys who can make the original spacing work for you - I can't understand how, since I have small hands, I do play with what would be described as the "proper" technique in that sense (fingertips vertical), and I still couldn't play it cleanly enough for what I want. The biggest issue was the back of the nail of one finger hitting the octave string of the next pair and making it rattle or buzz - usually on an open C major chord, which is one where you don't really have the option of an alternative fingering.

I would guess that for every person who prefers the narrow spacing there are five who find it awkward at best and unplayable at worst. I know RIC likes to be different but I really think of this one as being obtuse for the sake of it. It's not that they shouldn't OFFER the narrow spacing - I totally agree that they should, and especially on the vintage reissue models since this is a historical fact - just that I think it shouldn't be the ONLY option on most of the models.

I don't have any problem with the standard width on the 6-strings, in fact I don't like the ones with wider necks.

[jimk]

John, I wish I had had you as a guitar student. This is the kind of personal situation when I'm faced with it I can't let go, and can't surrender. In situations like this, I think the US Marines have it just about right "Adapt, improvise, and overcome."

I know that in my banjo teaching experience, I've only had two students in six years of teaching at the Americana Music Academy, who didn't get it. And it was because both of them gave up early and surrendered to The Wall of Frustration. And to my beginning students, I always make sure to give them my Wall of Frustration story about how all the banjo players I've ever known were soon tempted to toss their banjos into the nearest dumpster at the first opportunity...only to wake up one morning and discover that they could play as though they'd been born in West Virginia and had been playing for 30 years.

At any rate, I'm happy to hear that your 660 is working out for you.

JimK

JimK

[whojamfan]

Yes, the strings are closer together than a bunch of people would like, but they are much better than they used to be. I find for some progressions that alternate positions work better than some open chord ones do, and sometimes a little creativity to make them work for you. The nut mod shown above, if it works for you, great. I know myself I would be pulling both sets of E strings of the fingerboard, as I occasionally do it with some of my 6 strings of various brands. I sometimes play with a very heavy vibrato technique that sometimes chirps the string in to the side of the fret. I am in no way slagging the mod or Mark, I just see my "big sausage" fingers pushing those strings right off the fretboard.

12 string electrics can be misleading when playing, as they cannot be played exactly like a 6 string. 12s are their own animal,and should be approached as such. 12s have their limitations, and also their advantages, and Rick makes very unique ones with a very special sound. Of course, as also listed above, technique is paramount to get the most out of any instrument, but if it just doesn't work for you, costly mods might not be the answer, especially if you decide to sell it and need to change it back to stock. There are other companies who make 12 string electrics, and if you really cannot tolerate or adapt to the Rick spacing, then perhaps you should check them out, or better yet, an acoustic with a pickup in it. If it doesn't work for you, sell it to someone who it will work for.

[BlueAngel]

John, I wish I had had you as a guitar student. This is the kind of personal situation when I'm faced with it I can't let go, and can't surrender. In situations like this, I think the US Marines have it just about right "Adapt, improvise, and overcome."

I think it comes down to whether you want to have and how you play dictated by the instrument, or whether you want an instrument that will do what you ask of it. I'm generally (though not always!) in the latter group, and it sometimes frustrates me when an instrument is perfect in many ways but has some design quirk that prevents it being so in all ways... but actually I don't really get frustrated since there is always another instrument, or one that can be modified. Unfortunately changing the neck width is pretty difficult! So since what and how I wanted to play didn't really work on my 360/12, for several years I simply didn't bother with Rickenbacker 12-strings - in fact, I had one I built myself with a neck modeled on my Martin D12-35. When I discovered the 660/12, I was happy to go back to Rickenbacker, since in all honesty it's a better instrument than the one I made.

The same applies to the 6-string spacing - if you have a playing style or some other consideration that makes it too narrow for you, it's NOT necessarily your fault or a requirement that you must adapt to it to be a 'proper' player... if that was true we would all still be playing archtop electrics with huge strings and 'adapting' to cope with them. It was exactly because they weren't very well suited to louder amps and techniques like string bending that guitar and string technology advanced.

RIC does indeed offer several models in both 6 and 12-string with wider necks - but they restrict the models it applies to. You can have a 12-string with a wider neck... if you want a solidbody and vintage appointments. You can have a 6-string with a wider neck... if you want a solidbody with either vintage stuff or a maple fingerboard and humbuckers... but not with High-Gains and standard styling. Equally, if you want a 24-fret solidbody with a maple board and humbuckers but a NARROW neck... that's just tough too! My frustration is simply the lack of logic in this.

[captsandwich]

I had little trouble adjusting to my 12 string.
And, fwiw, I have horrible, sloppy technique. The guitar is nowhere near the limiting factor as far as I am concerned.

[holland]

I’ve no problem with strings slipping off the fret ends whatsoever.

It's got wider and taller frets then standard which make a big difference, the fretboard has been de-lacquered which feels fantastic. I can use any gauge /size of string I like, because the bridge (12 individual saddle version) has been specifically cut for the mod & moved back from the bridge pickup.

It has also been re wired to a far more useful configuration.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/ ... nation.jpg

So, it’s really easy to play, sounds great with a janglebox and yeah, “it works for me”

[seanyfitz]

For what it is worth, my 360's neck is a full mm narrower at the nut from the wood removed after the fire, and i love it! Picked up my 66 330 last night after playing the 360 and the neck felt huge! Try the tight spacing, you may grow to love it and find your self playing better. I did.

[seanyfitz]

Would you like to get rid of the thinner 12 string nut????

[ken_j]

One point I would like to bring up as far as the guitars from the '50s and '60s having narrower necks is they also had a small fretboard radius. Some of the early Fenders were measured with a radius of 5". A neck with a smaller radius has more playing area then one of the same width with a flatter radius. As playing styles changed, with string bending and such, the necks became flatter and wider. If you play a '60s Rick that has a 7.25" radius it will feel like there is a bit more room than a newer one with a 10" radius. I know that the difference is small but to me the tighter radius is more comfortable for cording than the flatter ones. Of course I never claimed to have proper technique.

[seanyfitz]

Thanks Ken, I found your reply very useful. My hands must be from the 40's. I love the 7.25 radius, but exactly what do all these numbers mean? I am going to buy a fret press and build a guitar. Sean