Amp Help

[btomlinson]

I play a Les Paul jr. and a few Rickenbackers. I have a 71 Twin Reverb that's too heavy to carry around.

I bought a Marshall DSL-401 tube amp. I ended up using my original RAT distortion pedal. My questions are:

If I use a pedal for distortion do I need the expensive Marshall DSL-401? Couldn't I use any 40 watt tube amp with the pedal and get a similar sound? Would there be a big difference between say a Marshall and Fender? Also, why not just use the pedal with a solid state amplifier and my RAT pedal? I have always liked tube amps but never had a really good reason for using them. I like simple amps. Example. I was considering a VOX AC15 because I like Peter Bucks REM guitar sounds. If I don't like the natural break up of the AC15 is there a need for it?

Thanks

[Memphis Blue]

For my money (and my back!) you can't beat a Rickenbacker through a AC-15.
If you really push it, it breaks up nicely but I really like the clean chime.

[shamustwin]

I've been using a Marshall at rehearsal (the studio's backline) and my Fenders at home. While first having fun with the Marshall sound, I find I really dig the cleaner Fenders. You can get a pro quality Fender in a 22 watt 1x12 configuration, which is good for most small-medium clubs. Not too heavy, fits easily in the car trunk.

I generally use a 40 watt, 1x12 Fender, still more power than I need. Last night I gigged with my 60 watt Fender, stayed too clean for my tastes. I prefer 12 inch speakers, this has 4 10's. And too much un-used power! (amps were mic'd through the house P.A. as well).

I'm pondering the 22 watt Fender or an 18 watt Dr. Z, though that Dr. Z might be suited more for a blues-styled sound, with slightly muddy overdrive.

Hope this helps!

[ken_j]

There ia a great price on a Fender 22 watt amp here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=382177 I have switched to low power tube amps due to the weight. Plus I don't really need alot of power.

[Clint]

Three questions:

1. How heavy is too heavy?

2. Do you play mostly clean or distorted?

3. How loud do you want to be?

[shamustwin]

Three questions:

1. How heavy is too heavy?

2. Do you play mostly clean or distorted?

3. How loud do you want to be?

1. Speaking just for me:

1. Fortunately I can lift nearly every amp, but how much work do you want to do before and after a gig? I think my Fender 4x12 is 85 pounds, that's about the limit I'd feel like lifting. I don't want to start packing dollys.

2. Semi-clean, I like the natural sound of single coils. I let my other guitarist lay a distorted background when needed. Playing clean in unison produces some nice effects. I dirty some solos with overdrive pedals, some I just turn the guitar up.

3. Loud enough to be b@llsy and have punch, but not to overpower the room. With the other bands we played with just last night, one didn't have enough ooomph from their amps, another made everyone leave the room.

Anyone else?

[ken_j]

Three questions:

1. How heavy is too heavy?

2. Do you play mostly clean or distorted?

3. How loud do you want to be?

1. I don't want to have to lug around anything more than 40 lbs.

2. Mostly clean but when I want distortion I like it all preamp tube and power tube distortion along with some cone break-up.

3. Not too loud as my hearing has already suffered. Remember there is only 3 db difference between a 20 watt amp and a 40 watt amp.

I currently have 15 watt and 20 watt amps. I am considering modifing them to switch from pentode to triode so that I can lower the power and still get some break-up without being too loud.

[soundmasterg]

Sound is subjective, and everyone hears differently, and has different preferences, so answering these type of questions is always somewhat subjective too. For me the biggest difference between a solid state amp and a tube amp is in the feel when you play, and in the depth of the sound. The tube amp will tend to create other harmonics and distortions that serve to fatten up the sound. They also generally compress when you play them, so they are more touch responsive. Someone in the crowd generally won't notice, but the musician definitly will because when they dig in, the amp will respond by getting a little more compressed and distorted. The solid state amps don't do this and tend to sound thinner and have no touch response as a result. The modelling amps are better than pure solid state, but tube amps still cut the mustard for most people. They are heavier, cost more, cost more to maintain, and are more persnickity.....but its the nature of the beast. Every amp will sound different even the same model of amp, because there are variables in the parts used among other things. Most tube amps are simple, especially vintage ones, or boutique ones. To my ears, they usually sound better too.

Greg

[shamustwin]

That's good to know Greg.
I go with the Fenders cause they're close enough for the price.
The best sound I've got from an amp IMO was a 2x12 Jaguar which was part of a back line.
If I had the dough...

[BlueAngel]

Remember there is only 3 db difference between a 20 watt amp and a 40 watt amp.

That is true in theory, but not in practice.

For it to be so requires every other factor to be identical, and they very rarely are. Firstly, many larger amps use more speakers, or higher-rated, more sensitive ones - this can alone add several more dB. Secondly, the dynamic response is at least as important as the power in creating perceived volume, and due to the larger transformers and larger-capacity power supplies in larger amps, they can often have a much greater transient power output, so even if the sustained power is only doubled (which would give you the 3dB increase through identical speakers), the peak power can often be higher still.

A great example is the classic vintage Marshall 50W and 100W heads - if you've ever heard the two side-by-side, there is no way the 100W Super Lead is only 3dB louder than the 50W, which would be just a moderate increase. It's much louder, and far more dynamic and cutting.


For me, I like big amps with a full tone and I get most of the distortion I want from the preamp or pedals. I would far rather have more power than I need and a good master volume than try to hit the exact volume by using power amp distortion and then risk either being too loud or not being able to achieve the tone I want. There is a certain unique tone you get when all the parts of the amp are working perfectly together, and it can be really wonderful, but it's extremely limiting in practice unless you have the luxury of a big stage, a full PA and monitors so the actual volume of your amp isn't important. I don't like trying to do that with tiny amps either, I've never heard one that has a really full tone and enough dynamic headroom for a good clean sound at even fairly low volume - about 30W seems to be about the lower limit for me, but I'm just as happy with 100. I know, this runs counter to the current fashion for small amps, but I don't do it because I enjoy moving an amp that weighs almost as much as I do (I'm just a little guy!).

Sound is subjective, and everyone hears differently, and has different preferences, so answering these type of questions is always somewhat subjective too. For me the biggest difference between a solid state amp and a tube amp is in the feel when you play, and in the depth of the sound. The tube amp will tend to create other harmonics and distortions that serve to fatten up the sound. They also generally compress when you play them, so they are more touch responsive. Someone in the crowd generally won't notice, but the musician definitly will because when they dig in, the amp will respond by getting a little more compressed and distorted. The solid state amps don't do this and tend to sound thinner and have no touch response as a result. The modelling amps are better than pure solid state, but tube amps still cut the mustard for most people. They are heavier, cost more, cost more to maintain, and are more persnickity.....but its the nature of the beast. Every amp will sound different even the same model of amp, because there are variables in the parts used among other things. Most tube amps are simple, especially vintage ones, or boutique ones. To my ears, they usually sound better too.

I agree with a lot of this, but I really disagree that digital modeling amps sound better than analog solid state... to me they sound much worse, both in tone (harsh and artificial) and feel (less able to respond correctly in a dynamic mix). I've never been able to get any kind of acceptable tone out of most of the ones I've tried, whereas I can usually get a passable (or better) one from any analog solid-state amp within a minute. But it is definitely subjective!

[ken_j]

Remember there is only 3 db difference between a 20 watt amp and a 40 watt amp.

That is true in theory, but not in practice.

For it to be so requires every other factor to be identical, and they very rarely are. Firstly, many larger amps use more speakers, or higher-rated, more sensitive ones - this can alone add several more dB. Secondly, the dynamic response is at least as important as the power in creating perceived volume, and due to the larger transformers and larger-capacity power supplies in larger amps, they can often have a much greater transient power output, so even if the sustained power is only doubled (which would give you the 3dB increase through identical speakers), the peak power can often be higher still.

A great example is the classic vintage Marshall 50W and 100W heads - if you've ever heard the two side-by-side, there is no way the 100W Super Lead is only 3dB louder than the 50W, which would be just a moderate increase. It's much louder, and far more dynamic and cutting. ...

This is what I (from my audiophile days) call headroom. There is nothing like it for transient response. The reserve power you get from a large power supply with heavy iron and large caps gives an unmistakenable dynamic punch to transients. At most I only jam with a few friends so I don't need the extra headroom. I am using my Subway Blues and Fender Blues Jr. with a 2 x 12 cab loaded with Clestion G12H 30W 70th Anniversary Special Edition speakers or a Mesa 1 x 12 3/4 back cab. Both of these cabs are fairly efficient. For how I play I am lucky to get these small amps to their sweet spot much less one with more power.

[johnallg]

Ken, interesting. I've been toying with the idea of adding power supply capacitance to my SVT-3 Pro for just that reason - more transient response (punch). I guess I need to pull the cover off again.....

[BlueAngel]

Ken, interesting. I've been toying with the idea of adding power supply capacitance to my SVT-3 Pro for just that reason - more transient response (punch).

The great thing is that with improving technology, caps are getting a lot smaller in relation to their electrical ratings, so you can usually get a much larger value cap into the same space as the one you're replacing, without having to modify the board or the mountings.

But I think there is also some evidence (I would have to say anecdotal, since I don't know if anyone has actually measured this properly) that physically larger caps have more dynamic punch and sound better, even at the same electrical rating. I've noticed that a lot of modern amps with tiny caps just don't seem to have the sort of volume that you would expect from their (genuine) power ratings, whereas older ones with caps the size of soup cans often sound really great and much bigger than you would expect. A while ago I compared a new 600W Ashdown to an old Mk5 150W Trace Elliot through the same cab, and the Trace actually sounded almost as loud, and better with it. I would guess the size of the internal components in the caps could have a bearing on their internal resistance at high currents.

Just be careful you don't overload the rectifier diodes with the power-up surge though - an empty cap is almost a dead short to the rectifier, and the bigger it is the longer it remains that way.


Sorry for the technical thread diversion

[shamustwin]

Question:

It seems to me that I am getting a better sound with 40w amp turned up full and guitar volume knob turned down to sound level "A", versus amp volume at say, 4 and guitar volume close to full to attain same sound level "A".

I'm not pushing the amp in either case.

Am I imagining a better tone?

Does this question make sense?

Reinforces my desire for a master volume on my Ricks!

[soundmasterg]

But I think there is also some evidence (I would have to say anecdotal, since I don't know if anyone has actually measured this properly) that physically larger caps have more dynamic punch and sound better, even at the same electrical rating. I've noticed that a lot of modern amps with tiny caps just don't seem to have the sort of volume that you would expect from their (genuine) power ratings, whereas older ones with caps the size of soup cans often sound really great and much bigger than you would expect. A while ago I compared a new 600W Ashdown to an old Mk5 150W Trace Elliot through the same cab, and the Trace actually sounded almost as loud, and better with it. I would guess the size of the internal components in the caps could have a bearing on their internal resistance at high currents.

Could be I suppose, but be careful with that one. The famous Sprague Atoms for years have been a big cap case with a small and modern size cap inside. They tore some apart and posted pics, then got someone from Sprague to comment at the Hoffman amps forum, and basically Sprague only recommends these for vintage replacements and not new construction. They make smaller, more modern caps of better quality these days, in addition to other manufacturers like F & T, Illinois caps (I personally don't like these), Xicon, Rubicon, etc. Moreever, there was some theorizing that having a small cap inside a big case could make the caps not withstand heat as well since they wouldn't be able to dissipate any through the case, and not withstand vibration as well since a little cap could be moving around inside the larger case.

I agree with a lot of this, but I really disagree that digital modeling amps sound better than analog solid state... to me they sound much worse, both in tone (harsh and artificial) and feel (less able to respond correctly in a dynamic mix). I've never been able to get any kind of acceptable tone out of most of the ones I've tried, whereas I can usually get a passable (or better) one from any analog solid-state amp within a minute. But it is definitely subjective!

Maybe I should have said that modelling amps can sound better than some solid state, as of course not all amps are created equal. I really like the old Kustom amps that CCR used, and they're solid state. Some of the Vox solid state stuff was quite good, and likewise the RIC Transsonics....but these are old solid state designs which have much in common with tube amp designs of the time. Modern solid state.....I can't say I like much of it beyond the Roland stuff...and in all cases I prefer tube amps. The new modelling amps....well they're ok but still not up to tube quality. I could play a set with them if required and would prefer the Vox modelling amps to other brands because they seem to have a bit more feel, but for me, tube amps are where its at. They just sound more realistic in all respects.

Greg