Are "Relics" Folk Art?

[jazzsmith]

I hope that this is the right category for this posting. I'm kind of new at this forum, but I am enjoying running these ideas passed a group of mature knowledgeable people (unlike some other forums which shall go nameless). I've been intrigued with relic guitars since they first started coming out of the Fender and Gibson custom shops. I have also enjoyed the lengths that people will go to to properly "Lennonize" their short scale Rickenbackers - was it a slot head screw? what angle was the Bigsby set at? Or when Tom Murphy finds just the right set of conditions to check the surface like a Chinese celadon urn. There is a certain creativity that goes into it Folk art is probably not the right term, as that implies a certain crudeness and these guitars are anything but crude. But my question is - and I guess it kind of goes along with my "economy/vintage" thread - will a collectable category emerge around these guitars? The custom shop ones and the well researched home-made Lennon guitars. I do know that the certifiable Murphy guitars go for twice the price of the same item done by someone else. Personally, I'd take one of each!

Would anyone out there take their Rickenbacker "C" model and distress it? NO......... that's unthinkable!

[ilan]

Would anyone out there take their Rickenbacker "C" model and distress it? NO......... that's unthinkable!

Unthinkable? Think again. Amber Fireglo is an artificially aged finish. Not distressed but certainly made to look old. And the AFG guitars have ambered binding and inlays too.

I like the Fender Time Machine series. Especially the Closet Classics. You can have a new guitar that immediately feels like home, but without someone else's gunk.

I too didn't understand why anyone would pay a premium for a new guitar with dings and oxidation. Until I actually played one.

[jazzsmith]

I didn't know that Rickenbacker was aging their re-issues. Cool! I'd love to see one. What is kind of a brain twister about the relic thing is that people pay big bucks for mint condition actual vintage guitars AND others pay big bucks for John Cruz or Tom Murphy to beat them up. I guess thats where the Folk Art angle comes in. I can remember my mother in the '50's making "antique" furniture. She'd use a nail to make wormholes and drag a chain across the wood. People would say, "Amazing, it looks 100 years old". I once bought a new bridge cover for a '67 Tele that I had. It looked too shiny, so I took my coffee can full of loose change and poured it repeatedly over the ashtray until I got the desired effect. It worked pretty well and was fun.......

[paologregorio]

I think it's more like Hollywood special effects than folk art.

If you want to REALLY distress the finish and hardware on your Rick to make it look like a relic, just drop it off at my house and let me gig with it for a year or two.

[ilan]

Rics don't wear out like Fenders, even thick-skin 70's Fenders. Conversion varnish breaks and cracks but does not rub off like nitro or even poly. There's no clearcoat checking and crazing like on Fenders. White Plexi pickguards on Rics stay white, when white vinyl guards yellow. Beat-up "relic'ed" Rics are usually just abused, or stripped.

[1965]

Rics don't wear out like Fenders, even thick-skin 70's Fenders. Conversion varnish breaks and cracks but does not rub off like nitro or even poly. There's no clearcoat checking and crazing like on Fenders. White Plexi pickguards on Rics stay white, when white vinyl guards yellow. Beat-up "relic'ed" Rics are usually just abused, or stripped.

I don't know about that. Of course RIC finishes check. And how do you explain gentle arm wear like this?
I agree about the white guards, but remember all the gold ones that turned green?

[kenposurf]

I'm a fan of a well crafted relic owning several of Bill Nash's guitars...not a fan of most Fender relics though as for the most part are overpriced and the relic job somewhat contrived at least on the ones I've played. re: Rickenbackers...I love the aged binding but ya gotta be nuts to want to relic one..get away from my guitar with that sander

[kiramdear]

The green pickguards happened because they used brass or bronze powders for the pigment, which consist mainly of copper. Real gold doesn't tarnish.

Here's some nice checking on my 4001; I hope it shows up well:

[jingle_jangle]

The whole concept of paying extra (and lots extra, usually), for an artificially-beat-up instrument, is anthithetical to me. I have always seen it as a cynical marketing effort to pump up profits. Would you pay extra for a dented, trashed trumpet (NOT owned by a celebrity)? How about a messed-up drum set (again, not celeb-owned)? How about a car? A house? We spend lots of disposable income to bring these items back to life.

I don't understand the popularity of this on guitars. The whole "mojo" thing is simply a sales ploy. And, like the lowest-common-denominator marketing that works on a majority of pop-culture iconography, guitars have fallen victim.

Celebrity "replicas" are the worst tip of this iceberg, too. I do wonder if any of these $15K Jeff Beck beaters will ever change hands at investment prices, once the novelty has worn off.

I'll spend my cash on craftsmanship, thanks. Craftsmen are a dying breed--people who will drag a guitar through mud, pee on the chromey bits, and beat the paint with chains, can be found on any corner. Fake mojo=real caca.

[1965]

The green pickguards happened because they used brass or bronze powders for the pigment, which consist mainly of copper. Real gold doesn't tarnish.[/img]

Of course I know that, but ilan was making a sweeping statement about how Ricks don't get worn out unless someone beats them to hell. How could that possibly be true?

[ken_j]

The only guitar close to this that RIC builds is the 4001C64S. Modded to be like what Macca did to his bass.

[kenposurf]

The whole concept of paying extra (and lots extra, usually), for an artificially-beat-up instrument, is anthithetical to me. I have always seen it as a cynical marketing effort to pump up profits. Would you pay extra for a dented, trashed trumpet (NOT owned by a celebrity)? How about a messed-up drum set (again, not celeb-owned)? How about a car? A house? We spend lots of disposable income to bring these items back to life.

I don't understand the popularity of this on guitars. The whole "mojo" thing is simply a sales ploy. And, like the lowest-common-denominator marketing that works on a majority of pop-culture iconography, guitars have fallen victim.

Celebrity "replicas" are the worst tip of this iceberg, too. I do wonder if any of these $15K Jeff Beck beaters will ever change hands at investment prices, once the novelty has worn off.

I'll spend my cash on craftsmanship, thanks. Craftsmen are a dying breed--people who will drag a guitar through mud, pee on the chromey bits, and beat the paint with chains, can be found on any corner. Fake mojo=real caca.

To my eye the relic works on a Fender style but not on any other guitar...I dunno maybe I'm a victim of marketing but my Nash relics just look cool that way..if I saw an other brand in that condition I would value it less...maybe like beat up Levis are cool but not a pair of dress slacks?

[jps]

The whole concept of paying extra (and lots extra, usually), for an artificially-beat-up instrument, is anthithetical to me. I have always seen it as a cynical marketing effort to pump up profits. Would you pay extra for a dented, trashed trumpet (NOT owned by a celebrity)? How about a messed-up drum set (again, not celeb-owned)? How about a car? A house? We spend lots of disposable income to bring these items back to life.

I don't understand the popularity of this on guitars. The whole "mojo" thing is simply a sales ploy. And, like the lowest-common-denominator marketing that works on a majority of pop-culture iconography, guitars have fallen victim.

Celebrity "replicas" are the worst tip of this iceberg, too. I do wonder if any of these $15K Jeff Beck beaters will ever change hands at investment prices, once the novelty has worn off.

I'll spend my cash on craftsmanship, thanks. Craftsmen are a dying breed--people who will drag a guitar through mud, pee on the chromey bits, and beat the paint with chains, can be found on any corner. Fake mojo=real caca.

To my eye the relic works on a Fender style but not on any other guitar...I dunno maybe I'm a victim of marketing but my Nash relics just look cool that way..if I saw and other brand in that condition I would value it less...maybe like beat up Levis are cool but not a pair of dress slacks?

And to think, you guys are in the same band?

[sloop_john_b]

Nash makes excellent guitars and they're still reasonably priced, usually at around $1200-$1500 (is that right, George?). Paul's issue is with Fender's exorbitant pricing of relics, especially the celebrity ones.

The same Andy Summers Tele has been sitting at Manhattan GC for nearly two years, and I have a feeling it'll be there for a very long time at nearly $15,000.

[jazzsmith]

I agree with Jeffrey about the coolness of Nash guitars and also that the relic concept looks best on Fenders. I did once see a re-issue Korina Flying Vee that had been lightly relic'd by Tom Murphy, however. It looked amazing. I think that the whole concept of relic-ing is to allow us the look and feel of a VERY rare or even non-existant vintage guitar at 1/10th or 1/20th the price of a real one, should that real one even become available. I recently saw a Masterbuilt relic of a '64 Strat in SHELL PINK!...... with a mint green guard. I mean, what would that be worth if it was genuine? $50,000? I also saw a Masterbuilt relic Esquire Double Bound Custom in metalflake 7-up green w/ gold anodized guard. That would be non-existant in a genuine vintage guitar. The wear and tear just made me more inclined to go, "Whoa!" Anyway, they're not for everybody. I don't have one, but I do think they're neat.

Also, the "Lennon-ized" 325. They seem like a fun thing to put together and enjoy......