What brand CV to use?

[frickengruvin]

.....so I am now in the stage of applying cv to my '66 365 project and would like to know what cv to use....This instrument is Mapleglow, (original finish is Mapleglow too) and has been stripped down bare. Ther binding has been replaced (both c/b and "plain") and I want to get a "vintage" look in the re-finish.

I know that Sherman Williams is available-is there any particular "line" that should be used? What color amber tint should be used for attaining the "vintage" coloring?

Thanks in advance!!!

[jingle_jangle]

You can use Sherwin Williams Kem-Var--the product # is V84F96, and it's a standard finish for commercial wooden furniture, kitchen cabinets, and (LOL) wooden caskets. It uses an acid catalyst in a 4 ounces per gallon of varnish ratio. You can thin it with lacquer thinner or acetone for spraying.

There are two caveats with this stuff--personal safety and gun cleaning. DO wear a half-face respirator with organic vapor and activated charcoal cartridges--one of those cheapy 3M white hospital/olympic dust masks will NOT protect your lungs. Spray in a clean area free of other items--the overspray will settle and once catalyzed is permanent. So hopefully you have a spray booth!

Because the catalyst is acid, it will attack spray gun guts and especially nozzles. If you're only going to do one instrument, simply disassemble the gun after using and clean with a good urethane or universal gun-cleaning solvent.

I don't use S-W; I use a pricier, tougher and non-yellowing automotive CV: PPG 2042. It uses a different system for catalyzing that's easier to mix and doesn't kill spray guns. It is tougher to sand, but recoats well and gives a great, tough film that buffs to a mirror gloss.

Re: Tinting. You can use a transparent amber dye, but if you're going to use Colortone (available from Stew-Mac), use their lacquer range, not the water-based range. Personally, I mix mine using PPG DCU tinting colors. I use the tint only on the first two coats of CV, and the remaining coats are left untinted--they're the ones you'll be sanding to flatten and buff, anyway. I can't give you any formulas, as I do this by eye, but one tip: over-tint the varnish in the cup or can; it goes on very thin and won't look ambered if you're shy with the tint.

[frickengruvin]

Thanks very much for your insight and expertise Paul. I will have to look around to see if PPG is available in my area. A spray booth will be utilized-and thanks for the heads up on the spray gun care.

This project is coming alon (slowly but surely) and upon its completion I'll hopefully be able to post a few photos.

[frickengruvin]

Paul: When spraying cv, do you have personal guidelines you follow for application amount, drying "cure" time, and sanding-scuffing in between coats?

Also what allowances are made for weather-temp and humidity.

I live in Sierra Nevada, and I'm sure these issues can have a dramatic affect on the outcome of the application.

Thanks for your input!***Mark

[jingle_jangle]

Paul: When spraying cv, do you have personal guidelines you follow for application amount, drying "cure" time, and sanding-scuffing in between coats?

Also what allowances are made for weather-temp and humidity.

I live in Sierra Nevada, and I'm sure these issues can have a dramatic affect on the outcome of the application.

Thanks for your input!***Mark

This is at least fifty pages, if I go into detail and attempt to cover all the bases, Mark.

I'll abbreviate a good deal, but this is VERY general and it's a rule of thumb that EACH case will be different. It's the experience you gain each time you spray that steers you in the proper direction to make each project a success. Application amount: spray over two days; first coat misted, then 6 wet coats the first day; allow to cure 8 hours and cut back with #320, dry. Second day: 3 wet coats, last coat thinned with reducer an additional 10%, then "flow coat". Approximately 10 minutes to an hour between coats.

Allow entire surface to cure minimum 72 hours before sanding and buffing. Wet sand with #1000 paper; power-buff with Menzerna medium on 12" sewn muslin wheel, rotating at about 850 RPM. Second buff with Menzerna Extra Fine, separate sewn muslin wheel, same speed.

If you can let the finish settle for 30 days or so before wet-sanding, you'll get negligible shrink-back, and the finish will look smoother, longer. But there are no guarantees--every piece of old wood is quite different, and will hold paint and CV differently, so variations in gloss and hold-out are normal and to be expected.

The PPG CV is not too moisture-sensitive, although the catalyst should be tightly-capped between uses. The hotter the temp, the slower the reducer you need. PPG's reducers are temperature-coded; i.e., DT870 is good for 70°F, DT860 for 60°F. I seldom use anything other than 870, though. If it's really hot, I'd go with a slower reducer.

Oh, and, BTW, ask another finisher and he'll tell you something completely different. We all have our methods.

[jdogric12]

Oh, and, BTW, ask another finisher and he'll tell you something completely different. We all have our methods.

+1!

[dgwguitars]

Paul - I guess that the "another finisher" leaves an opening for me to chime in.

Mark - If you want an alternative, you might look into Target Coatings' waterborne CV. As mentioned in another thread, I'm a proponent of waterborne finishes, and have been using Target's Ultima Spray Lacquer for some time (and it's predecessor Premium Spray Lacquer) with great results. I did a test guitar for myself with the waterborne CV with great results, and subsequently on a customer's guitar. Having not used the finish Paul has referenced, I can't give you a pro / con evaluation with relation to it, but the waterborne seems to be a viable alternative to the lacquer I have been using, and will continue to. The major plus of the waterborne finishes, to me, is their being more environmentally friendly.

[frickengruvin]

Thanks for the input! The biggest factor for me in utilizing cv is I am attempting to keep this as close to stock as I can.....that being said, some of the parts have been incredibly difficult to locate, the guitar is still being prepped for it's refinish, and there is a little bit (or alot as the case may be) of practice in applying the cv. there has to be a comfort factor in the application on the actual guitar and that is being tended to now.

What is the durability factor in the waterborne cv? I'm interested in knowing more about that. Does it apply in the same manner as regular cv? Are the clear coats and tint shades as readily available as PPG or SW? This guitar is basically staying mapleglo, with just a shade of tint to age the binding and be consistent with the age of the guitar ('66 365).

Thanks!

[dgwguitars]

The Target CV is not a new finish, although I've just recently begun to use it in conjuction with their waterborne acrylic lacquer, which I've used for some time. There is a board on the Target website where you can get feedback from users, as well as the company's owner, which I've found useful. Although I've not been on the MIMF board for some time, there has always been some discussion about the Target finishes, as well as the waterborne finishes sold by LMI. I can't give you a comparison to the SW CV, since I've not used it, although I recommended to Paul that he buy a quart to evaluate it in relation to his finish of choice. I would do the same with the SW, but my facilities aren't set up to handle anything but waterborne finishes. Regarding tints, the Target CV only comes in clear, but it takes tints / pigments readily, as can be seen it Kevin's recent Green-Glo, and the acrylic lacquer for Ron's, John's and Rich's guitars.

I guess it's familiarity with the finishes, but I've found the waterborne finishes easy to use - application is straight-forward, leveling reasonably easy, and no problem with wetsanding and buffing. I have found that the CV cures more quickly than the lacquer, as in a week vs. two. The CV has a slightly yellowish cast, but it's not perceptible unless you get extravagant with the coats. In your case, a vintage-looking MG would probably be easily achievable with either finish, but in keeping with true Ric-ness, the CV would probably be more in keeping.

I don't know if Paul's understanding is the same as mine, but IMO, waterborne finishes are likely going to take over in the not too distant future. My brother-in-law runs a vintage car restoration shop (50's / 60's Lincolns & Fords are his specialty - in addition to my '49 Nash, which has been under restoration for 12 years), and he's been telling me that's the way he'll have to go.

[jingle_jangle]

Waterborne is being legislated into usage, for primers and pigmented color coats. Waterborne clear coats are still not 100% reliable, and although in mid-2009, bodyshops will begin phasing in the waterborne color coats (primers have been in use for a decade or more), solvent-reduced urethane clear coats will continue to be used for the foreseeable future.
Imagine what a quick-turnaround guitar finishing business will need to do to cope with the slow drying and curing times of waterborne paints. Automotive refinishers have always had the "bake" option, but wooden guitars cannot be baked. The solution would seem to be UV-cured varnishes, a direction which Rickenbacker is already taking and which other manufacturers have fully implemented. UV-cured waterbornes may supplant traditional urethane clearcoats, and I'll be there once the process is as foolproof as current technology.

[johneek]

..... Regarding tints, the Target CV only comes in clear, but it takes tints / pigments readily, as can be seen it Kevin's recent Green-Glo, and the acrylic lacquer for Ron's, John's and Rich's guitars.....

Kevin's guitar.....

Ron's guitar

John's guitar below......

John's 350

Rich's here.....

[jingle_jangle]

Very, very sweet work, Larry, and congratulation, gentlemen!

I'm very happy to see Larry doing such fine work, and I'm also eager to see some work coming out of JDog's booth eventually, too.

I suspect that by the time I'm out of the backlog woods, there will be three of us Forumite finishers, helping to keep old Ricks from returning to the earth the hard way, not to mention adding some more exotic colors to our Rickenlandscape...

[dgwguitars]

Thanks, Paul. As you already know, it's a pleasure to do things for such a great group of people.