12 String talk

[firstbassman]

What is it they say, close enough for rock and roll?

I don't remember seeing 12-string saddles before they invented cheap electronic tuners. Ignorance was bliss.

Kira, exactly!

I will tell, again, one of my little Jorma Kaukonen stories:

Me: Jorma, what did you guys do back then before there were small portable electronic tuners?

JK: It was easy.

Me: Really, how was it easy?

JK: We'd just play out of tune!

[sloop_john_b]

It has become an unintentional tradition at nearly all my gigs that when I switch to my 12-string, it's always seriously out of tune. So, while I tune it, I always get on the mic and say "See, the thing with 12-string guitars is, half the time your tuning them, and the other half of the time, you're playing out of tune." The audience (usually the same basic group of people) has come to expect it by now and it's all in good fun.

[jingle_jangle]

A great bit of patter, JB...

Next time we play I gig, I'd try it, if I used my 12 on anything live...

If the punters were listening. They're usually too busy doing other stuff...

Ah, what's the use?

[paologregorio]

A 381 does not have a 12-saddle bridge, as it is a reissue of a 1969 instrument. A 660 does, however - as per Tom Petty's specifications.

My 381/12 came with one.

Huh...I guess it's because the 12-string version is not *technically* a reissue??? Thanks.

Never thought about that; I don't think I've ever seen a 12 string 381 from the 60s, so I don't know if any were ever made, though I suppose that one could have ordered one back in the day if so desired.

If my 381/12 had come with a six saddle bridge I probably would have kept that, but it came with a 12 string bridge. IIRC John Hall prefers the six saddle bridge. I've heard from a number of folks that the six saddle bridge provides more sustain due to the bridge having fewer, larger metal saddles, which sounds reasonable to me, though I'm not sure how audible it is to the human ear, either for most folks, or at all. My 381 has plenty of sustain to my ear, but who knows.

In a similar vein of thought, I did replace the Melitta bridge on my Duo Jet with a space controller bridge for more sustain; the latter bridge is entirely metal, and was the bridge that came with my Silver Jet guitar; the pickups, body style, and control layout of the two guitars as built are identical other han the bridge (and the Duo Jet being slightly more chambered), and initially the Duo Jet had less sustain. I switched the bridge and now they sustain equally. In the case of the Jets however, the difference was between a bridge that's mostly not metal vs. one that's all metal, in contrast to the two different Rick bridges, which is the difference between bridges with the same amounts of metal with one having more saddles in smaller pieces vs. one having fewer saddles composed of larger pieces.

As far as keeping the guitar tuned, my 381/12 stays in tune pretty well, even with my doing bends on it, though there was one Christmas gig a couple of years ago where I "retuned" my 12 string during a break after a couple of sets and a few glasses of scotch-big mistake. I thought I'd read the tuner indicator and retuned the guitar correctly, but when I played a few notes, that guitar sounded like it had been dropped down a flight of stairs.

[leftybass]

I don't think I've ever seen a 12 string 381 from the 60s, so I don't know if any were ever made, though I suppose that one could have ordered one back in the day if so desired.

They did make a small amount of 381/12 guitars in the 60's, yes. A VERY small amount.

[tennis_nick]

I think a 12 saddle bridge is a great idea, and can't imagine bad intonation being beneficial to tone.

Jangle is in the guitar, not the tuning, much like a Gibson sounds just as thick when it's in tune... Just look at the Saddles of Roger McGuinns 370,



Those saddles are way too out of whack to be compensated for either way without a negative affect on overall sound (IE, tune)

I don't think anyone will say that Roger McGuinn doesn't have jangle either.

[deaconblues]

Thanks, Paul...I'm planning on a 381/12 when I get the money together, so any info I can get is appreciated!

[grazioso]

+ there was 12 saddle rickenbacker style bridge before 370/12rm - it was made by stars guitars -a manufacturer of fine hardware for e.g. alembic. it was brass piece with chrome plating. very nice and i am looking for one for ages.

[jimk]

Here's another take on the subject from JH himself.


JimK

[drumbob]

Don't base your choice of an instrument on the bridge...these can be easily swapped out. Since it's a Beatles tribute band, the obvious choice would be the 360/12C63. And, if it was good enough for Mr. Harrison, it'll be fine for you! And, don't worry about the intonation issue. It's part of the Jangle, in the case of vintage Invasion tunes.

Exactly right. You don't really need the 12 saddle bridge, unless the guitar is really messed up, and if it is, you don't want it.

A LOT of records were made with 12 string Ricks with the old bridges, and it is part of the mystique of the instrument. I had a long talk with Chris from Pick of The Ricks about converting my 330-12 to a 12 saddle bridge. We estimated the cost, and once I had the guitar set up right with the right strings, it didn't need an expensive conversion. Chris said the same thing: a Rick 12 with a six string saddle bridge has a classic vibe. Leave it alone.

[beatlefreak]

a Rick 12 with a six string saddle bridge has a classic vibe. Leave it alone.

+1

[JakeK]

The more I hear all this, the more I desire a hollow 60s RI 12-string...

[beatlefreak]

It's a long wait for a new 360/12C63. I'm coming up on 29 months waiting for mine.

[jimk]

It's a long wait for a new 360/12C63. I'm coming up on 29 months waiting for mine.

I feel for ya, Kris.

JimK

[tennis_nick]

a Rick 12 with a six string saddle bridge has a classic vibe. Leave it alone.

+1

I'm more along the thinking of mr Paul Smith, though I don't care for his guitars, I agree with his way of thinking. If you can improve on something, nostalgia be damned, I want to build the best damn guitar I can.