12 String talk

[beatlefreak]

With the proper string gauges, many Rick twelve strings can achieve perfect intonation with a six saddle bridge. So what are you improving upon?

[tennis_nick]

With the proper string gauges, many Rick twelve strings can achieve perfect intonation with a six saddle bridge. So what are you improving upon?

If someone would post a comprehensive list of what the proper string gauge are, then that would be an improvement, but much like the reason I'd never buy a FLoyd Rose guitar (with the speedloader), I don't want the guitar dictating what strings I use (within reason).

[teb]

As I recall, perfect intonation on a guitar is a mathematical impossibility. For a twelve-string, even if it's properly set-up and very well intonated, if you tune it with an accurate tuner so that the open strings are as close to "perfect" as you can get, it will probably sound pretty funky. You will need to learn to tune it to a "sweetened" tuning made up of a bunch of averages if you want it to sound really good. That's part of the process of learning to play it. On a Rickenbacker twelve that's properly set up, it will also play very easily. You need to also be aware that you can bend the strings simply by clamping down really hard with your fingers when fretting. Try it - if you have good ears, you'll see what I mean. For someone who seems to have their guitar tuned properly one second and playing out of tune the next, this is something to consider and learning to keep the pressure even will help.

I have twelves with both six and twelve-saddle bridges. Both play well and sound just fine with plenty of Jangle. I actually believe having the adjustable bridge base plate is probably more important than twelve saddles, but there is no performance fall-off with the 12-saddle bridge that I've noticed and I have recordings that would seem to prove it. I think you guys are way "over-thinking" this one if the criteria is the quality of your sound. I do get a big hoot though, out of much of the "gotta' have vintage equipment" stuff with young players. Having lived through those days and had to deal with a lot of really ****** vintage equipment it's pretty funny - like vintage tuners.....We were so happy when companies like Grover and Schaller finally made tuners that worked well and couldn't wait to dump the lousy, open-geared tuners on our guitars.

[jingle_jangle]

As I recall, perfect intonation on a guitar is a mathematical impossibility. For a twelve-string, even if it's properly set-up and very well intonated, if you tune it with an accurate tuner so that the open strings are as close to "perfect" as you can get, it will probably sound pretty funky. You will need to learn to tune it to a "sweetened" tuning made up of a bunch of averages if you want it to sound really good. That's part of the process of learning to play it. On a Rickenbacker twelve that's properly set up, it will also play very easily. You need to also be aware that you can bend the strings simply by clamping down really hard with your fingers when fretting. Try it - if you have good ears, you'll see what I mean. For someone who seems to have their guitar tuned properly one second and playing out of tune the next, this is something to consider and learning to keep the pressure even will help.

I have twelves with both six and twelve-saddle bridges. Both play well and sound just fine with plenty of Jangle. I actually believe having the adjustable bridge base plate is probably more important than twelve saddles, but there is no performance fall-off with the 12-saddle bridge that I've noticed and I have recordings that would seem to prove it. I think you guys are way "over-thinking" this one if the criteria is the quality of your sound. I do get a big hoot though, out of much of the "gotta' have vintage equipment" stuff with young players. Having lived through those days and had to deal with a lot of really ****** vintage equipment it's pretty funny - like vintage tuners.....We were so happy when companies like Grover and Schaller finally made tuners that worked well and couldn't wait to dump the lousy, open-geared tuners on our guitars.

The new Peterson Virtual Strobe tuner that I've been using and loving a lot, has sweetened tunings for a variety of instruments, including 12 string, stored in its memory. Of course, you want to first tune the guitar and then check intonation, using the tuner to check both and "dial them in".

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/ ... sku=210056

[tennis_nick]

Those strobe tuners are expensive man! for that kind of money I'd rather be out of tune! hahaha!

[jdogric12]

+1 Todd.

Perfect tuning in general is impossible. Google or wiki "well temperament" and block a few days off your calendar if you want to see what it's all about. WELL TEMPERAMENT!!!

Ever notice how you tune your guitar, play a G chord, and it sounds great, but then a D chord or C chord is out of tune? WELL TEMPERAMENT!!!

Ever tune your guitar using 5th, 7th, and 12th fret harmonics, just to end up with something that resembles the sound of a cat being tortured? WELL TEMPERAMENT!!!

Ever wonder why they keep coming up with new fangled things like Buzz Feiten etc etc ad nauseum? WELL TEMPERAMENT!!!

I hope I've been clear....

[paologregorio]

Then there are players such as myself who like to do bends and such on our 12 strings, so we prefer to use a lighter gauge set; I use the Ernie Ball .008-.040 set, which allows me to do bends much more easily than with a heavier gauge set. Since the Ernie Ball set I currently use was not on the list that JH mentioned at one point or another as a 12 string set that intonates well with the six saddle bridge, as a practical matter it's probably a good thing that my 381/12 has the twelve saddle bridge. I'd probably be equally happy if my guitar had come with the six saddle bridge though.

[scotty]

Then there are players such as myself who like to do bends and such on our 12 strings, so we prefer to use a lighter gauge set; I use the Ernie Ball .008-.040 set, which allows me to do bends much more easily than with a heavier gauge set.

I have really enjoyed this thread very much so and have enjoyed everyone's comments and pros and cons but i have to say this is what its all about.Paul i have also put 8`s on my 12 and have to say enjoyed them but alas moved up to 11`s to what im comfortable with,its all about what your happy with and enjoying your guitars.I also got a kick out of Tebs comments

I think you guys are way "over-thinking" this one if the criteria is the quality of your sound. I do get a big hoot though, out of much of the "gotta' have vintage equipment" stuff with young players. Having lived through those days and had to deal with a lot of really ****** vintage equipment it's pretty funny

All to true and my hat is tipped to your honestly and always informative posts.Have what you want and enjoy no matter what saddle or gauge! Its your guitar people dont have to conform to formula.
As Goofyfoot would say"play often out of tune, jam with toasters and pick your nose! well kind of like that,you get my drift.....

[kiramdear]

Can someone give me an "E"?

[teb]

I'm really serious, too, about keeping any eye on how hard you squeeze. It came as kind of a revelation to me at some point back when I was trying to figure out why certain chords would sometimes sound fine during pre-song tuning and then a bit off during the song itself. It turned out that during some of the rapid chord changes I was really nailing certain strings (the low E and A pairs in particular) and not bending them to the side, but squeezing them straight down over the frets hard enough to make the notes a bit sharp. Relaxing my grip a bit helped greatly. Holding the baby snugly makes him happy and contented....squeezing him too tight makes him barf...

[steverok]

With the proper string gauges, many Rick twelve strings can achieve perfect intonation with a six saddle bridge. So what are you improving upon?

I'm not too sure about this. Strings of different diameter, and/or different composition, require a different length to achieve correct intonation. I have switched from an unwound G to a wound G, and was surprised at how much the intonation changed. The most obvious benefit of the 12-saddle bridge is you can get better intonation on the upper strings, but I don't play those much near the upper frets, so, it really isn't needed for me. I think a cool bridge would be a hybrid, which has two saddles for some of the upper courses, like bass E and A, and only one saddle for the lower courses like B and treble E. So, I am proposing something like an 8 to 10-saddle bridge.

[steverok]

You need to also be aware that you can bend the strings simply by clamping down really hard with your fingers when fretting. Try it - if you have good ears, you'll see what I mean. For someone who seems to have their guitar tuned properly one second and playing out of tune the next, this is something to consider and learning to keep the pressure even will help.

I do get a big hoot though, out of much of the "gotta' have vintage equipment" stuff with young players. Having lived through those days and had to deal with a lot of really ****** vintage equipment it's pretty funny - like vintage tuners.....We were so happy when companies like Grover and Schaller finally made tuners that worked well and couldn't wait to dump the lousy, open-geared tuners on our guitars.

Well said ! I have definitely made some sour sounds by pressing too hard. If it plays easy, you are less likely to press too hard, though. Pretty funny post here.

[firstbassman]

Here's another take on the subject from JH himself.


JimK

Yup Jim, ya beat me to it. I remember that post by JH.

Plus all of the Telecaster players who swear by the vintage three saddle bridge.

[jdogric12]

Can someone give me an "E"?

E!!!!!!!!!!!

[johnashfield]

I know my 360/12 would not tune at all with the 6 saddle bridge. But I must add, I have yet to run across another ricky 12 that had the tuning craziness mine did. The 12 saddle fixed it, and I think it sounds fine. Check out the "recordings by rickresource members" forum, "Auffed" - The Bobbleheads, plenty of jangle there, and it's in tune!

I was so shocked when I picked up a jetglo 360/12 just like mine, a year after I had the 12 saddle bridge installed, and it was in tune and you could play chords anywhere! What can you do?

I like that we have the option personally.

One thing I do to make the 12 easier on my dainty hands is to use the rickenbacker string set, but swap out 9s for the 10s and 12s for the 13s and on the D string octave I use an 11 instead of the 13. Makes it much easier to play. For me! But like I said, I'm dainty.