*/12 models - tones, strengths, weaknesses, opinions?

[Vertigho]

Hi Folks,

Having got my 330/6 AFG set up nicely, I'm now RAS'ing for a 12-string Ric. I've been doing some research, but I wanted to solicit some opinions from this group. I'm thinking of either a 330/12, a 360/12C63, a 660/12 or a 350/12V63 (why no 360/12? - I simply prefer the look of the 330 style body, so the 330/12 or 360/12C63 wins out over the 360/12).

Having read much about these models, my first question concerns tone. My only point of reference is my 330/6, and I really love the tone of this instrument (both unplugged and running through my Genz Benz BP30-212 [sound-modeled after the AC-30 and built with 4xEL 84's in the power amp, 5x12AX7/1x12AU7 in the pre-amp, and 2 Eminence Red Fang speakers]). My 330/6 is a 2007 model so it has the latest high gains. If I went with a current production 330/12 I'd have the same pick-ups, while all of the other models I'm considering are equipped with toasters. What is the difference tone-wise of the toasters vs. the high gains? Are the toasters lower output? Are the toasters more "tonally correct" for a */12 (note that I'm not trying to duplicate a particular sound [McGuinn, Petty, Harrison, Townsend, Lennon, CW or whoever] so I don't need to find something to match a particular player's setup). How do the tonal characteristics of the 350/12V63 (smaller, closed hollow body) and 660/12 (solid-body) differ from that of the 330-style bodied guitars?

What about 12-saddle vs. 6-saddle bridges? Are the 6-saddle bridges a significant problem?

I've never played a 12-string guitar before and I've read lots of comments about the width of the neck (with the 620/660 series being significantly wider,and, thus, for some, easier to play). I don't know if that would be an issue for me - my fingers are on the slightly long/narrow side of normal and I'm fine with the 330/6, but not sure what to expect with a */12.

I suppose, before making any decision, I should see if I can find/play these 4 models to see which best suits me (maybe I should make the drive up from VA to MARF next month - I'm sure it'd be fun, but not sure I can get away for the weekend). Any of you folks who have played all of these models, your input would be most welcome/appreciated.

Andrew

[Rickygirl]

I don't know whether my input is of any help, but I have a 360/6 and a 360/12. I cannot comment on the different tones of the models you have mentioned as I have not been able to compare them, but other people will be able to. There is a difference in the ouput of the hi-gains and the toasters, is it something like 8 ohms for the toaster and 14 for the hi-gain????

Really it is playability I can comment on. I had my 12 string before i had the 6 string and on the 330, 360 (and I think the 360 C63) there is obviously less space for your fingers compared to a 6 string. I have found it took me a little while to get used to it and I have to slightly modify the way that I place my fingers on the strings, but you can accommodate it. I have fairly small fingers in comparison so I have slightly more room.

I think the overall tone of my 360 is fabulous with the Rickenbacker strings on and it really rings out. It is very much a personal thing though and you are right to need to try them all, if you can find them!

I am sure other people will be able to be more helpful, this is just my own personal view. Good luck and have fun deciding.

[jdogric12]

*sigh*...... I'll repost my sampler clips tonight.

http://www.rickresource.com/phpBB3/view ... 60%2F12v64

[sangandongo]

My 450/12 is hotter than my 450/6. The 12 also has a janglier treble than the 6. The 12 is a '79 and the 6 is a '76, but I cannot see a single difference in the electronics, so I believe it's probably a difference in the pickups themselves.

[jingle_jangle]

Hi, Andrew!

It's actually the 660/12 that has the wider neck, and the 620 with a "standard" width neck.

If you haven't played a Rick 12 before, you are in for a treat, and possibly a challenge. There are a lot of different models available (if you count in the vintage stuff), and each has a different personality. I would imagine that you'd like to scratch this itch sooner rather than later, so ordering a new one, although it would give you a gorgeous instrument somewhere down the line, would be a plan once you've sampled the variations on offer.

My first Rick was a 660/12, and it did not jibe with my memory of playing a new '65 12er back in the day. The neck felt like a (gasp) Gibson LP, although it turns out a good deal shallower, But there's plenty of room on the fretboard to play with these sweethearts. A guy (or gal) could almost get comfortable and confident...

The solidbody Rick 12s have a completely different personality from the semi-hollowbodies. They're smaller, almost petite, and seem to me to have a thinner, more transparent sound, especially the 660, which has toasters as standard equipment.

The guitar that everyone thinks of when they think "Rick 12"--the 360/12--is a good place to start. You can get that classic Rick sound with a bit of compression, and it's quite comfortable to play with its top being radiused as it is. My own preference, however, in these larger-bodied contemporary semi-hollows, is for the 330/12. You need to try both; I know it's a tall order, though, to find them both in one place at the same time EXCEPT at a Confluence. Check the calendar.

For a solid feel and rockin' tone, a double-bound 360/12 can't be beat. To me, at least, they simply feel more...structurally stiff than a new style (rounded) 360 or 330. These turn up on Ebay and in stores in four variations: WB, OS360/365, V64 and C63.

If you're shopping vintage and have some cash, a mid-'60s 360/12 NS would be a sweet player with a classic sound, and the necks on these are wonderful. Close copy in a more current model would see you with a Carl Wilson, built largely to mid-'60s specs, and with a 21-fret neck, thinner braced top, toaster pickups, so it sounds unlike any other contemporary Rick. Limited edition (only 250 of the 12ers built) but worth a look. Kevin Kuney has a nice one for sale right now.

There are a number of other variations and models: 370/12s and 340/12s, the 370/12 McGuinn reissue, the 325/12 short scales (a decidedly acquired taste), vintage 450/12 solid bodies (real sleepers and well-priced because of that)...

Each Rick 12 has such a different personality, that you really have to match them to your own musical taste and playing style. But it's fun to look around and try them out, and with a Confluence or three coming up, it's a lot of bang for the buck to be able to talk to owners and therefore worth a trip to help you evaluate.

[scoobster28]

I agree with what Paul says, and would certainly stress playing as many as you can before you buy. I bought a 360/12CW after spending a long time in the store comparing it to a regular 360/12. The pickups (Higains on standard 360s compared to vintage ones as an option, and special scatterwounds on more recent vintage pickup-equipped guitars), the string spacking (660 vs. most everything else), scale length (325/12 are FUN but not for everyone) and other features (thin top on the CWs make them sound AMAZING), set up, string selection (pyramids vs. rickenbackers vs. thomastics), amp settings, ...

At the price you will end up paying, you better be sure it sounds like what you want.

[jdogric12]

*sigh*...... I'll repost my sampler clips tonight.

http://www.rickresource.com/phpBB3/view ... 60%2F12v64

edit: hang on that was the wrong mp3.... (removed)

here's the right one...

http://www.yousendit.com/download/Y2o5O ... VG14dnc9PQ

[carr]

I used to have a 360/12 and even with my small hands and fingers I found the string spacing was a little tight .However, using the formula posted in the old RRF by a Luthier whose name escapes me and for $50 I had a new nut made locally by James Cargill with slightly wider spacing and it became a dream to play. I saw the detail recently somewhere in one of my old files . I can dig it out if anyone needs

j

[JakeK]

I have my trusty 660/12 Tom Petty limited edition, and it is one of my favorite guitars. The versatility cannot be beaten!

While I have no compressor pedal, I do get a lot of sustain from this baby, which makes playing the Byrds and the Beatles a heck of a lot easier with no compression. Of course, it can get the tone of Tom Petty (think "Listen to Her Heart", "Here Comes My Girl", "The Waiting", "Rebels", "Free Fallin", "Saving Grace"), even the songs he didn't play 12-string on ("Refugee", "American Girl"), it gets his tone the best. Think to some of the early Stones recordings ("Not Fade Away", "Good Times Bad Times", "Under the Boardwalk", "Mother's Little Helper"). This guitar helps work out all the acoustic 12-string Keith Richard was playing. It also gets that weird sitar-like sound on "Mother's Little Helper" (which to my thinking was a '65 Ric 360/12 or 1993/12 with a lot of compression added), due to all the sustain.

But sometimes, having the big belly that I do, I find the body to feel very small, and I want to get a hollowbody Ric (360/12CW) for it slightly larger body. At the end of the day, I'll always be happy to have the TP, and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world!

It would be nice to have a 360/12CW, just for the narrower neck and hollow body, but it isn't worth the TP. I can save the dough for the day I can get a CW.

[Vertigho]

Thanks for all the info, folks. It's certainly helpful.

Yes, I did see that Kevin's CW is for sale. And it's certainly nice that the string spacing has been adjusted on his, too. Dare I ask how much? (yes, I'll dare - I'll send him a PM).

I also saw Jason's 330/12 FG (with the extra cool-io JDog signature pick guard!- if it's still available).

And Bryant's 360/12C63 (if it's still available).

And a used 360/12C63 (seems to be missing it's bridge cover) on gbase.

And a used 450/12 on gbase.

And there's a demo model 660/12 FR for sale on ebay that appears to be in decent condition with a decent BIN price.

[doctorwho]

It would be worth the trip to MARF, as the best way to decide is to play a few and see which one feels right to you.

My go-to twelve is my 370/12RM FG, but my best sounding and playing one is my 370/12v64 (yes, that is not a typo). I did have the chance to play a 360/12c63 FG a few years ago, and it was also an incredible player. My 660/12TPs are currently in third place (sorry, Jake!), but I need to restring them and set them up anew to give them a fair shake.

[jdogric12]

Sorry dude, that 330/12 FG is sold. PM me and I'll hook you up with the dealer that got it.

Gary I've always loved that 370/12v64. So cool. And of course I think there is video of me rocking your RM, right on there too. Sorry I let the G octave string go flat mid-set.

[Vertigho]

12-string RAS relieved - at least in a delayed gratification kind of way. I've put a deposit down on a 360/12C63 FG that's currently on order at Rhoads Music. ETA is not until summer 2010, but that's actually a good thing in that it gives me 20 months or so to accumulate the funds for the balance of the purchase (and a much easier sell to my wife who would have been far less accommodating with another guitar purchase after my 330/6 and G&L ASAT from earlier this year).

FYI, Rhoads still has one 360/12C63 not yet spoken for - it's a JG (I didn't know that Rick built this model in anything other than FG, but apparently they do) and ETA on that is summer 2009.

[jimk]

12-string RAS relieved - at least in a delayed gratification kind of way. I've put a deposit down on a 360/12C63 FG that's currently on order at Rhoads Music. ETA is not until summer 2010, but that's actually a good thing in that it gives me 20 months or so to accumulate the funds for the balance of the purchase (and a much easier sell to my wife who would have been far less accommodating with another guitar purchase after my 330/6 and G&L ASAT from earlier this year).

FYI, Rhoads still has one 360/12C63 not yet spoken for - it's a JG (I didn't know that Rick built this model in anything other than FG, but apparently they do) and ETA on that is summer 2009.

Oh now! Where've I heard this story before?? And the same dealer, too. Care to join me on the Group Therapy Thread for Rick Owners In Waiting?

JimK

[Vertigho]

Well, it's only been since Friday, so I'm not yet in need of therapy. Perhaps, keep a desk/chair open for me in the Tuesdays @ 8 PM session ("Hello, my name is Andrew and I'm waiting for a 360/12C63") - well, what the heck, put my name down to bring the donuts to the June 22, 2010 meeting (are we meeting in Elizabethtown, PA, by chance?). Does everyone like sprinkles?

Seriously though, Jim, I presume your name is next to one of the seven 360/12C63's on Rhoads' list in front of me. Congratulations (or would, "I'm so very sorry" be a better salutation?).