Selling out.

[scotty]

"Sort of like working in a supermarket when you really want to be an astronaut!"

Great line Rob!
Could be a line from any billy bragg song.Heres a personal fav of mine!

She said it was just a figment of speech
And I said "You mean figureAnd she said "No, figment
Because she could never imagine it happening. But it did

When we first met I played the Shy boy
When she spoke to me for the first time my nose began to bleed
She guessed the rest

The next day we went on a bus ride to the ferry
And when nobody came to collect our fares
Well I knew then this was something special
I couldn't stop thinking about her
And every time I switched on the radio
There was somebody else singing a song about the two of us

It was just like being on a fast ride at the fun fair
The sort you want to get off because its scary
And then as soon as you're off you want get straight back on again
But all love is strange
And you have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth I suppose

She began going out with Mr. Potato Head
It was when I saw her in he car park
With his coat around her shoulders that I realized
I went home and thought about the two of them together
Until the bathwater went cold around me
I thought about her eyes and the curve of her breasts
And about the point where their bodies met

I confronted her about it
I said, "I'm the most illegible bachelor in townAnd she said "Yeah that's why I
could never understand any of those silly letters you sent me
And then one day it happened
She cut her hair and I stopped loving her

[sowhat]

I'd say, if one loses his integrity or identity because of exchanging his bit of work for megabuck, perhaps there were no integrity and identity right from the start. Or something.

[whojamfan]

Regardless of what they might like you to think, every single artiste that sells their work is in it for the money.
From John Lennon to Curt Cobain, I can't name one single musician who has sent back their royalty cheques from day one. Though some do re-distribute a small part of their wealth once they have a few million in the bank.
Commercial music is a business, and like it or not, every artists that sells his/her wares is part of that business.
'Selling Out' is a romantic term dreamt up mostly by already rich artistes who can afford to pick and choose which brands they do or don't want to be associated with.
There really is no difference between someone like John Lennon reieving a free Rickenbacker, and Iggy doing an insurance commercial, both were done for personal and corporate gains, it's just that most folks would think a Ric is cool and insurance is not.
Integrity is usually more of a concern for the fans of an artiste than the artiste himself. The artistes main worry is that he will alienate those fans by openly promoting a particular product, so some do tread carefully. Others would sell there own mothers for a $.
I would think that Iggy is now at a point in his career where he couldn't care less. "You wanna pay me that much to do that? bring it on!"

Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing all of that Rob. Here's how crass the whole thing is, I was in 2 bands that played very similar types of music. One of the bands was signed to a major US label, and the other to a little label in England. I never changed who I was, or what I was doing, but now all of the sudden I'm having conversations with fans of one band as to why I "Sold Out". I got a rider giving me 1 meal a day, a shared room, and came home with less money than staying at work. Yeah baby, I was rolling in dough-rubbish!

[tennis_nick]

Selling out IS rock and roll.

[fireglo67]

Selling out IS rock and roll.

+1!

[wayang]

Regardless of what they might like you to think, every single artiste that sells their work is in it for the money.

Er...I take respectful issue with this and a few other points made here. 'Selling' is not the same thing as 'selling out'. In a world defined and run by capital, everyone needs money, but it doesn't follow that every single one of us involved in any particular pursuit is 'in it for the money'. If you're doing the very best work you're capable of, obtaining a modest compensation for it and living within your means, you're not selling out, artiste or not. If, on the other hand, you've noticed that by dumbing down your message, cheapening your product, targetting the lowest-common-denominator, etc., you stand to make a killing and proceed to do so, you are selling out without question...what Ron Miles, the brilliant Denver-based jazz trumpeter, refers to as 'whoring with your pants on'...

Some notable examples, love 'em or hate 'em: consider Nat Cole's incredible piano work in the JATP (Jazz At The Philharmonic) recordings compared with the last time you heard him singing 'Ramblin' Rose' over the PA system in a supermarket; Phil Collins' incomparable drumming with Genesis and Brand X compared to his insufferable vocal stylings on numbers like 'Easy Lover'; 'Sgt. Pepper's...' vs. 'Silly Love Songs'...

No indeed, working for a living is not, in and of itself, shameful...but while I may not be able to provide an absolute definition for 'selling out', I know it when I smell it...

[JakeK]

My favourite take on selling out:

+1

Featured one of my favorite Who tracks, "I Can See for Miles"

It's also my third favorite Who album.

[winston]

No indeed, working for a living is not, in and of itself, shameful...but while I may not be able to provide an absolute definition for 'selling out', I know it when I smell it...

So what is everyones take on previously critically acclaimed music being used to advertise products (such as works by the Beatles, the Stones, Bowie etc) or as an introduction to a popular television network series.........The Who's recorded works on CSI come immediately to mind as I type this question?

[wayang]

An excellent question, Brian, and one not so easily answered. If composer and product both experience an enhanced status, it could be a worthwhile pairing...such might be the case with The Who and CSI. The use of Led Zep's "Rock And Roll" to sell Cadillacs, however, irked me. Who says you can't have it all? Me and The Second Law Of Thermodynamics, that's who. Might I suggest a more sensible pairing? Cadillac and King Crimson's "Great Deceiver":

"Health-food faggot with a bartered bride
Likes to comb his hair with a dipper ride
Once had a friend with a cloven foot
Once he called the tune in a chequered suit

Great deceiver

In the door on the floor in a paper bag
There's a shoe-shine boy with a gin-shop slag
She raised him up and she called him son
And she canonised the ground that he walked upon

Great deceiver

Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the virgin mary
Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the virgin mary

Cigarettes, ice cream, CADILLACS, blue jeans

In the night he's a star in the milky way
He's a man of the world by the light of day
A golden smile and a proposition
And the breath of God smells of sweet sedition

Great deceiver

Sing hymns make love get high fall dead
He'll bring his perfume to your bed
He'll charm your life til the cold winds blow
Then he'll sell your dreams to a picture show

Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the virgin mary
Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the virgin mary

CADILLACS, blue jeans, dixieland playing on the ferry
CADILLACS, blues jeans, drop a glass full of antique sherry"

...drink up, Shriners...

[paologregorio]

"Selling out" is what one accuses one's favorite band of doing when people one doesn't like start to listen to the band, and one can't pay at the door to see the group up close at the local dive-y club anymore!

Either that, or it's just a term one applies to one's formerly favorite band or artist when that band or artist starts making music one doesn't like anymore.

[stubby]

I've been wondering lately too of how "timeless" music actually is and how that affects its commercial use - i.e., selling out. Here, the role of the radio jumps immediately to mind though I don't think it's the only way we get overexposed to a piece of music. What I'm getting at is I'm wondering if the constant airing of music over decades has diluted the original impact/intent/message of the tunes to such a degree that the artists say, "Why not, this song has already been compromised anyway." Here I am thinking about those songs that have been around since the 60s or 70s or even earlier. The Who/CSI example cited above or the use of Happy Together to sell chocolate bars(?) are good examples of the kind of tunes I'm thinking. Some of these tunes, after all, are starting to creep up on being half a century old. In the eyes of the artists, could there be a "shelf life" for these songs where they maybe begin thinking the song has already been compromised anyway so what the hell? Could the fact that so many people have been hearing these songs in such a wide variety of contexts (e.g., extended radio overplay, covers in bars, retrospective shows, "oldies" compilations, weddings, etc. etc.) affect an artist's decision to "sell out" their song to peddle shoes, cars, TV shows or whatever else the product might be?

[brammy]

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson

[antipodean]

These days, it's hard to tell the establishment from everyone else. Twenty years ago, the stereotype of sharks in suits on the corporate side and naive artists (with those ambitious and driven exceptions like Madonna and Sting) had some kind of traction. These days, with technology really impacting on how music is distributed and sold, the suits are harder to find and the artists are way more savvy and business-wise.

In this environment is it possible to "sell out", or has everybody who runs their own distribution already done so?

[winston]

These days, it's hard to tell the establishment from everyone else. Twenty years ago, the stereotype of sharks in suits on the corporate side and naive artists (with those ambitious and driven exceptions like Madonna and Sting) had some kind of traction. These days, with technology really impacting on how music is distributed and sold, the suits are harder to find and the artists are way more savvy and business-wise.

In this environment is it possible to "sell out", or has everybody who runs their own distribution already done so?

That's a pretty deep question Evan and so here's an answer from my perspective at least and in part. I doubt that choosing to distribute your own work can be confused with selling out.

Is it possible to sell out in the current music business environment? Anyone care to tackle this part of the question? In particular I think it would be great to hear from those of you who are currently working in the music business and trying to make a living?

[jimk]

I honestly don't know what selling out would look like anymore. I mean I thought I used to...say back in the mid 1970s, or thereabouts. Back then, there was no such thing as the internet, and getting record a deal was way beyond my ken. I suppose I thought the most egregious example of selling out would have been going disco. Or later playing to the fans of "Urban Cowboy." Those would have been good examples of compromising myself.

But now? Shoot, it's so easy. Anybody can create a record label & publishing company. It's dead easy. And relatively cheap, too. Touring is the difficult part. That takes an awful lot of planning, time on the telephone, and email.

I've pretty much given up the idea of touring on the level that I did back in the late '90s. I'll settle for playing out with the string band, maybe doing some one-off gigs with fellow instructors from the Americana Music Academy, playing at the local farmers' market, and teaching private students.

JimK