Vintage 1963 Rickenbacker Horseshoe ?? MAYBE NOT !

[vincent_gallo]

The nice fellow and member here, who is describing and selling these pickups as vintage 1963 Rickenbacker bass bridge pickups may not be correctly describing what he is selling.
These are not 1963 type pickups. I own seven basses from 1963 and I assure you these bobbins where not the type installed on 1963 or later basses.
The seller of these pickups offered them for sale or trade to me directly before offering them on eBay. At that early point I explained they were not what he suggested. I was then surprised to see them represented as such and selling on eBay.

A bobbin from a 63-73 Rickenbacker bass is very easy to spot and is nothing like the one installed in these leftover horsheshoes.

The bobbin installed in the pickups for sale is closer to the 58-62 4000 series basses. However if it is missing its screws, that suggests that these bobbins were found un-wound as the screws are installed during winding. If this was the case then the bobbins should be described as such.

Horseshoes from lap-steel guitars are easily found and so are the bottom plates. Several guys here have put together pickups from these parts. Those who are experienced and serious about 60’s basses know very well these goofy substitutes don’t cut it.

For the record, every 50’s/60’s horseshoe is not the same. There are different sizes and the same is true for the bottom plates. Random bobbin, horseshoe, and bottom plates pieced together do not make up anything original and often do not set up well in 60’s basses.
There is a member here who had been well known for matching together 69-73 type bobbins on older horseshoes to make up pickups that would fit in 68 basses. Some of those were unplayable as the gap between pickup and shoes was soemtimes too narrow and buzzing was unavoidable.

There are others here who can explain better what I have suggested and I am surprised they have not shared about this eBay offering. Come on Wints.

I do not know Dale Fortune at all and I am sure he is a very nice guy but a 60’s Rickenbacker pickup expert he may not be.

[thx1955]

I've seen the "For Sale" ad for the "63" horseshoe over in the Marketplace section, and I never took that ad as selling, or trying to sell a vintage 63 horseshoe.

I read it to be a reworked version of a 4001-v63 horseshoe.

I've never known Dale to say or claim he was reworking and selling vintage 60's Horseshoes.

I'd trust Dale to work on any of my Rics, and I'd buy one of his reconstituted Horseshoes.

Having seen the Ebay ad I do agree that the Ebay ad is potentially misleading, and the price is obscene, but there again since the factory will not sell a re-issue Horseshoe then this type of selling is going to continue.

[sashua]

Well apparently Mr. Gallo feels that the man who managed Rickenbacker's shop is not as experienced as he is about all things Rickenbacker.

I did offer these to Mr. Gallo who claimed they were fakes. When I asked him to support his claim and show me a picture of what he meant by a "correct" bobbin he simply ignored me.

Dale has had these bobbins in his collection of parts for many years and if he claims that they are original then I trust him. Many of you know him to be a man of impeccable ethical standing and a learned scholar of all things Rickenbacker.

I don't see any need to turn this thread into a flame war. The shoes came from a lap steel....so what? Dale claimed the bobbins were somewhere around '63. Maybe he was off by a year or two...again, SO WHAT? They are all correct early 60's parts and were assembled by a master luthier. So...not worth having on a bass? Not better by miles than a re-issue? I am, in fact, selling these as refurb 60's horseshoes. Dale is not selling them and these are not reworked 4001 V63 shoes. I never claimed or in any way represented that they were.

Here's the good news, most of you know that I have a $150,000 (or more) invested into my collection of Rickenbackers. If you believe that I am trying to willfully deceive you and extort $1000 of your hard earned money - then you don't have to bid!

Mr. Gallo, I have nothing to prove here and I have a spotless reputation...the real question is what are you trying to prove?

[aceonbass]

I saw this auction last night and with less knowledge than Vincent, saw it as misleading. The description says the pickup is from 1963. No mention of a V63 anywhere in the ad, but the seller sure drops Dale's name to lend credibility to his claims. I'm also pretty sure that Dale worked at RIC in the 70's, not the 60's.
"RICKENBACKER VINTAGE HORSESHOE BASS BRIDGE PICKUP - 1963"
If this pickup was made from a lap steel horseshoe and NOS bobbins of indeterminate year, then the description is not misleading, but inaccurate.
"This is one VERY RARE gem as I'm sure you must already know if you are reading this."
"This is a Rickenbacker Horseshoe pickup from 1963 that has been meticulously restored to mint and flawless condition by renowned Luthier Dale Fortune".Due to the admitted source of it's parts, this pickup cannot be described as "restored"or from 1963.
Not that I wouldn't use this if I had a '63 Rick without a pickup, and I've no doubt that Dale did a great job, but it is not what it's described as.

[thx1955]

HI Russel,
To be clear I never said that the ad either here, or on ebay said they were v63 pickups.

I said that when I first read your ad over in the market place I assumed (completely on my own) that they were v63 type reissues, nothing more.

[wints]

I've posted over another thread here this morning...

As ever, the devil is in the details...

Russ, if you are going to label an item specifically it's got to be absolutely correct, and especially when you are asking big $$$ as such. This is not.

Yes, you do have an authentic 60's Rickenbacker horseshoe, with components that are all factory original, no question, but, it is one that has been modified FOR a bass, and not original TO a bass. That's the point here...

As this is a modified bobbin and lapsteel shoes, this should be fully disclosed as such in the listing. I can certainly understand that this is not intentional, however, listing it as such is not correct, and this is where the auction can be called misleading and technically incorrect.

[leftybass]

Well, I don't have a dog in this hunt but the pic Andy posted of the unit out of Graham's '63 is a good example of a period H/S we are discussing, if one wishes to make a comparsion.... There are of course other previously existing threads on this Forum about these if one would wish to do further research......

[johnhall]

Well apparently Mr. Gallo feels that the man who managed Rickenbacker's shop is not as experienced as he is about all things Rickenbacker.

Dale Fortune was never a manager of any type at our company. In his own words, from an e-mail sent to me while this auction was running:

"Although I did rebuild and restore 5 of these for Russ Rubman, I was never the Manager at ElectroString in the 60s, it was the early 70s before I even worked in the woodshop and I still never reached manager status."

Many of you know him to be a man of impeccable ethical standing and a learned scholar of all things Rickenbacker.

There seems to be only a 50% chance that this statement is true, as he either told you he was a manager or he didn't. And if he didn't . . .

[walker]

Vincent & John - related info about this topic can be seen here, including Andy's commentary:

viewtopic.php?p=509862#p509862

I know HS rebuilds are a passionate topic, but I think the only misstep Russ made was incorrectly disseminating information that he believe to be true. Accurately keeping track of the cosmetic changes that Rickenbacker instruments went through over the years is hard to do, given that said changes occurred as a gradual process over many months, maybe even years.

So as long as all those concerned with HS pickup details are here, the question still lingers... what kind of poles were used from 57-62? Vincent? Care to share some pics with us? Last I was aware, you now own the '58 bass I posted pictures of in the thread I linked above.

[headbanger]

the real question is what are you trying to prove?

This is a pretty sore subject with me as well.
If someone slaps together a pickup then claims it to be a 63 or a 65 when it isn't devalues ALL the REAL (and rare) pieces out there.So, not SO WHAT in my opinion.
This pickup wouldn't have fetched anywhere near the $1250 it got if it had been described accurately and without stretch the truth.

[aceonbass]

I agree. The auction said "Restored 1963 Bass Pickup". It's not a restoration if it's built, even with all correct NOS parts(which this was not) into a pickup that never existed before. I too believe it would not have gone for as much if it were accurately described. Unless Dale told this guy he was the shop manager in the 60's, he was actually lying about that to lend weight to the auction.

[admin]

A reply from Vincent Gallo posted as the thread was locked. I have unlocked this thread. If we are going forward can we please focus on the current situation leaving issues of personality aside.

From Vincent Gallo.

" I submitted this post while the thread was being locked. I
appreciate the opportunity to submit my final comments.

I have been collecting Rickenbacker 60’s basses since I was a
pre-teen (in the early 70’s.) I have never heard Dale’s name mentioned as a
factory employee during the 60’s and certainly not as a manager. I never
disputed the quality of his work, but instead questioned his experience
with a particular vintage. I own 58 basses from the 60’s, which I have all
in one room and have closely inspected. This doesn’t make me special but it
has given me insight others may not have.

In reference to the pickups I did not use the word “fakes,” but instead
explained clearly why they were not correct to the vintage Mr. Rubman
purported them to be. It is not my wish to prove, support or photo document
my views.

It is still unclear or proven whether these bobbins have
original windings and if so what they were wound for. They are NOT 1963
bobbins and it DOES make a big difference if they were made pre 1963. Pre
1963 bobbins are not correct for 4001.

I feel the eBay and Rickenbacker communities deserved more
disclosure before this ad was submitted. Whether I sent pictures to Rubman
or not, I believe my claim should have been looked into before eBay got his
post.

Being off by a year or so it indeed important. The year in question here
represents a
completely different bobbin and is not correct for any 60's 4001 and matched
with those shoes not correct for the earlier 4000. The pickup for sale is
most likely lap steel shoes with leftover factory top and bottom bobbin
plastic that has been recently wound and had new screws added. Worth every
bit of $500 max and useless to a collector or anyone interested in a
real restoration. As a collector I have a concern for those who may be
misled by this ad and make a purchase.

Gerry Fergusson made a great point when he stated that this
kind of misleading information corrupts the marketplace. It also distorts
history, and promotes greed. It is certainly not in anyone but the
seller’s best interest not to disclose the history of such a pickup.
Instead it would be best to advertise items for sale with as much insight,
background, and details as possible. I have not shared photos of my basses
here. With that said, I have always offered anyone my time and
experience if they requested it. I have remained open to visitors who wish
to view my basses. I am a devoted Rickenbacker fan and feel lucky to be
part of this community. I feel we are incredibly lucky to have John Hall
sharing his insights here. And members like Wints, Gerry, and several
others have so much information to offer. This is a great community and
that is why I feel its members need to practice business manners above and
beyond the standard protocol or simply expect feedback from those who can
insight and explanation."

[thinneckrick]

All the shoes that were made at the time were interchangable . They were used on lapsteeles , guitars and basses The only thing different were the bobbins and pole piece designations. Now , Try to find an original designated vintage horseshoe bass pick up !Good Luck ! That being the case . Most of us resort to purchasing V63 or V64 horse shoes. I've seen them sell lately for 1K . And they are not even real horse shoes ! They are as fake as it gets .non magnetized paperwieghts. So wich one would you rather pay for ? Who's really fooling who ????!!!

[jaymi]

All the shoes that were made at the time were interchangable . They were used on lapsteeles , guitars and basses The only thing different were the bobbins and pole piece designations. Now , Try to find an original designated vintage horseshoe bass pick up !Good Luck ! That being the case . Most of us resort to purchasing V63 or V64 horse shoes. I've seen them sell lately for 1K . And they are not even real horse shoes ! They are as fake as it gets .non magnetized paperwieghts. So wich one would you rather pay for ? Who's really fooling who ????!!!

The one that I have found is a v-reissue horsey....I am hard pressed to find ANYTHING original or even close to original. If I don't like this pickup it will be for sale as well since I am not a big fan of these but am going to try it out...

[thinneckrick]

Well . Theres your chance to get a real one right? ROFLMAO