?? 12 STRING QUESTION ??

eatswodo · Post by **eatswodo** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:55 am

I don't know whether the 12-string saddles are stainless steel or not - but not all stainless steel is magnetic. It depends on the alloys used to make it. Check out http://www.ssina.com/faq.htm#5

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:14 am

Eatswodo: Interesting information.

"5. Is stainless steel magnetic?

Answer: There are several "types" of stainless steel. The 300 series (which contains nickel) is NOT magnetic. The 400 series (which just contains chromium and no nickel) ARE magnetic."

Just when you think that it's water under the bridge you get saddled with new information. Thanks for alloying our concerns.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:53 am

Aluminum was used for awhile- I actually have a few remaining pieces here in my closet. Unfortunately, many of these can strip out and bind in a tight bridge as the thin side walls around the screw holes bow outward.

Type 2011 aluminum is used on six saddle bridges and those tweleve saddle units I mentioned, and is the "the sound". Sound waves travel through the part about 25% slower than steel which gives it a warmer sound without the harshness. I've been looking at 7075 as a possibility for this part since it has very similar density but much higher yield strength for the threading. But I'm guessing that the extra zinc loading will make it sound more like steel and/or the lower copper content might make it thud. It's also about 33% more expensive, mostly due to the titanium content.

The strings brands Peter mentions are all very good as far as the uniformity of diameter which is the critical issue in intonation. Use a string like this and the 12 saddle bridge is unnecessary.

The twelve saddle bridge WILL compensate for a naff string on an open note but the first fretted note make it no better than any other bridge.

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:05 am

This same intonation issue has plagued Tele players with the 3-saddle bridge for years. They compensate by a) bending the saddle adjustment screw to angle the saddle relative to the strings (the "Bakersfield" fix), b) buying compensated saddles, or c) learning to live with compromised intonation.

One might make compensated saddles for the 6 saddle bridge, but it's an open question as to how thick the saddle would need to be. For that matter, you could probably use the original saddles and bend the adjustment screw just as easily. On the other hand, the fact that the octave and fundamental strings are slightly out of tune will give you a fatter sound (to a point). This may contribute to "the sound" as well.

gary_birkholz · Post by **gary_birkholz** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:11 am

Mr.Hall ...Are you saying that the string length for the low E standard and the low E octave needs to be the same ?
The octave is generally about half the diameter of the standard string ... So wouln't the octave string need to be closer to the fretboard?
I am just using this pair as an example .

I know that on my six string guitars that have a wound G string .. that is the saddle closest to the neck . The low E the farthest ...If I change that ...it sounds terrible .
I am confused on this .
Can you help me to make this clearer ?

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:25 pm

Use whatever bridge and strings you prefer- your personal choices are just that and mine might be a bit different. But I'm not going to force the majority of buyers who either prefer the sound of the six saddle (as I do) or don't wish to pay for something they don't need, to start out with a 12 saddle bridge. Not every driver needs a turbo in their car either. An option is just that, something to add on if you think you need it.

With regard to the ears, I guess we have to toss out all those classic Beatles and Byrds recordings since just they don't sound right, having been done on six saddle twelve-stringers.

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:08 pm

John Hall wrote: "But I'm not going to force the majority of buyers who either prefer the sound of the six saddle (as I do) or don't wish to pay for something they don't need, to start out with a 12 saddle bridge.

Not to be confrontational, but do you know that this is true? I mean, unless you have offered the 12-saddle bridge as a standard option (and maybe you have) or conducted a comprehensive survey, how would you know the preference of your customer base? It may be that more players prefer the benefit of correct intonation (even at additional cost) over a subjective preference for the sound of AL saddles. Or not; I certainly don't pretend to know the answer to that question.

Failing that, what about compensated saddles? The current saddles are about 1/8" thick, right? Instead of putting the slots dead center, you could put the slot for the fundamental at the back of the saddle and the slot for the octave string at the front. It's imprecise and imperfect, but it may be a lot closer to perfect intonantion than the current configuration.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:32 pm

Adam: No matter what bridge, set of strings or setup that comes from the factory, there are always going to be players who will make adjustments to suit their style and personal preferences. Some will change the nut, others the bridge and still others the tailpiece or pickguard.

Many folks who purchase Rickenbackers are looking for a traditional instrument and as such it makes sense to me to keep things stock with the option of purchasing a different part to suit.

It has always been of great interest to me that much of the email I receive is about making changes to the guitar. Many who have newer instruments want to go back to the past (and this would be my preference) in order to capture a certain style or sound. On the other hand, others want to look to today's sound and are interested in hotter pickups or sometimes different pickups or wiring.

So no matter what RIC chooses to do the buyer will always have personal preferences. As long as the options for additional parts or adjustment is available this should allow for most everyone to get what they want.

gary_birkholz · Post by **gary_birkholz** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:13 pm

So this is another way of saying what the official stance is from Rickenbacker /John Hall ;

We make guitars that mirror the old original guitars of the 1960's and the sounds that those guitars made on recordings that have influenced countless guitar players and those recordings have sold millions of copies . To achieve those sounds ... a six saddle bridge will give you the tone of those guitars .
To fine tune that guitar to modern ears and players needs , you have the option to upgrade those guitars with a 12 saddle bridge .
While it is a finely made bridge , there are sonic differences that do not match those of the six string bridge . You will NOT sound exactly like those recordings , but will play in tune up the neck ,per string, better with this new bridge . Something that was not available at the time those guitars were originally produced .

Is this about it ..or am I wrong ?

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:13 pm

I dunno. One might think that the ability to accurately set the intonation rises a little above the level of "personal preference".

There's a fine line to walk between tradition and progress, and you are often forced to make a choice between the two based on less than objective and unquantifiable criteria. It is admittedly a tough decision. Look at tailpieces: many people hate the Ric tailpieces because it's such a PITA to string them. Yet, on the other hand, maybe they are an essential component of "the sound". If you want one, you have to suffer through the other. Some folks view their ability to work with and around Ric's quirks and idiosyncrasies as a badge of honor; others view it as an unnecessary annoyance. To each his own.

Even so, there are situations where the decision isn't (or shouldn't be) so hard. Look at my '62: the rear straplock that holds the tailpiece in place isn't in line with the centerline of the neck, the bridge pickup wasn't perpendicular to the strings, and the bridge was positioned such that it not only pulled the 1st string off the side of the neck, but was too far forward to set the intonation. I'm not moving the straplock, but you can bet that I'm moving the bridge and the pickup during the renovation. These are almost inarguably flaws that should be (and hopefully, have been) corrected by more modern manufacturing methods. Does it mean that the guitar loses some of the "hand made" cachet and tradition? Sure, but it's certainly a better instrument as a result.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:30 pm

Gary and Adam: I understand your points which you have made very well. What I hear John Hall saying is that there is a trade off in tonality between steel and aluminum saddles and that adequate intonation can be achieved with the 6 saddle bridge provided good quality strings are being used.

Some players have found that intonation is adequate using the six saddle bridge and have chosen this over the 12 saddle bridge as they have a preference for the sound produced using the aluminum saddles. Others it would seem would prefer the 12 saddle bridge as it is their experience that the intonation is better and they have not problem with the sound.

To me,the choice of bridge is really a matter of personal preference. The good news is that you can have it your way by selecting the bridge that suits you.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:02 pm

Gary, what you say is correct, except for one very critical point. One will NOT play any better in tune up the neck as compared to the other bridge. The variation of uniformity in poor strings can occur anywhere along the string: the first time you fret the entire harmonic equation changes, no matter how many saddles. That's why the string is so vastly more important than the bridge.

If you only play open strings then the 12 saddle bridge is of some value because that's the only place it will consistently help. Use a great string and the improvement becomes very small indeed.

Bridge compensation is for guitars with fixed saddles or those with insufficient travel. On a modern RIC, you have over 10 mm basic travel plus an additional plus/minus 4 mm using the coarse bridge mount slots. Besides, one pair IS precompensated already.

Also, I fail to see the relevance of a 42 year old project guitar to this discussion.

BobKat · Post by **BobKat** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:15 pm

The string factor is a very good point, and intonation problems can very often be compensated for by tweaking string gauges or using more suitable strings. In my opinion, a properly set up Rickenbacker 12 does not USUALLY need a 12 saddle bridge. I say usually because you'll always have some exception or another.

I do wonder two things:

Why the newer G saddle is not compensated liek the older ones. This is one that I think would benefit from a little compensation.

And, why certain guitars do come with a 12-saddle bridge. I understand the RM and 660/12 TP, as they are artist-specified, but the 381/12v69 and 660/12 are curious choices for the 12-saddle as stock equipment.

johnashfield · Post by **johnashfield** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:19 pm

I have a 2000 360/12. I had tried different sets of Rickenbacker strings, and Pyramid flatwounds. But the 6 saddle bridge still sounded really bad.

It was wildly out of tune. I could tune it so I could play a "G" chord, but chords such as "E" or "A" would then be out of tune.

My guitar needed the 12 saddle bridge to be a usable guitar. Judging by the people that use only 6 saddle bridges, I am sure other Rickenbackers do not.

The arguement that most players want the 6 saddle bridge I find a little interesting, since the 2 signature 12 strings both came with the 12 saddle bridge. The CW 12 model came with the 6, but who knows what Carl Wilson would have wanted, since he sadly has passed, and as far as I know didn't play RICS since the mid 60's.

With the 12 saddle bridge my guitar works great, and I always get comments about how in tune it is! I play it as my main guitar for the whole set.

To each his own. I was glad I could get the 12 saddle bridge, although it is a drag that you need a luthier to put it in the right position.

Again, to each his own. Who knows, maybe it's my wacky hands that make the 6 saddle bridge sound out of tune!

gt40graham · Post by **gt40graham** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:39 am

I'm sure that some guitars never intonate properly and the 12-string saddle would probably help but I think that most of us would never hear the difference. We should also remember that it is a physical impossibility for any guitar to intonate perfectly on all 6 (or 12) strings because, to do it, each string would have to have a different set of frets.

As John Ashfield says: To Each His Own.

I don't know about you guys (& gals), but I am impressed that John Hall even bothers to browse this forum never mind to post replies on it so I think some of the criticisms which are aimed at him are unnecessary. If he wants to sell his 12-string guitars with a 6-string saddle on them (and mine sounds fine), then that is up to him. At least he offers the 12-string saddle as an option and we should be grateful for that as there are a lot of companies out there who just wouldn't bother.