IMHO the vintage HS and the VRI models sound nothing alike. I like them both but the VRIs are merely cosmetic approximations of the old ones. The magnetic fields are different in shape and strength. The vintage HS have fairly weak magnets that degauss rapidly where the VRIs have stable alnico poles that will keep their fields for a very long time. The vintage pickups have fewer windings thus lower output than the VRIs. The lower output gives the vintage pickups a more subtle and complex tone.
Contrary to what has been said over the years here and elsewhere about the vintage HS, mine is quite loud and punchy. When played lightly to moderately it sounds great, very clear and clean. Played too hard, the strings will strike the shoes or the poles. In either case the resulting noise is FAR from pleasant. The gap between the poles and shoes is quite narrow. Squire gets away with fairly hard play because of his horizontal picking style. The strings are moved more or less in parallel with the pickup tops. My finger style tends to move them more vertically. The VRI pickups on the other hand are able to take any playing style. There is an adequate gap between the poles and the shoes so clanks and pops just don't happen.
The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
The RR/DF HS pickup has considerably more space between the poles and the shoes compared to both of my RI HS pickups, even after reshaping those shoes. As I have different strings on each of my basses that have HS pickups it is not easy to make a direct comparison between them, although I can say the vintage one is lower in output and does not seem to be as aggressive sounding as the RI HS pickup.
'73 4001 with RI HS - TI Jazz Rounds
'98 4001V63 - D'Addario Chromes
'08 4003 - TI Jazz Flats
'73 4001 with RI HS - TI Jazz Rounds
'98 4001V63 - D'Addario Chromes
'08 4003 - TI Jazz Flats
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
If anyone ever wants to do a vintage bass 'shootout' with original vs. RI horseshoe p/ups, I would be glad to put my '69 4001 LH up against a horsey-equipped bass of similar vintage or earlier as a comparison.
My own recollection of Mark Walker's '68 4001(with it's original H/S) is that it's one of the best-sounding 4001's I've ever played......When I was able to sit down for an extended period with my "new" '69, equipped with an 80's period RI H/S, I began to think about how similar my bass sounded to his, even with the later pickup installed.
I can't wait until we get together again and we have a chance to do this, for I have other theories (outside of p/ups) as to why these basses sound so good....The p/ups are a big part of it, but there are other things that should be looked at as well......Look beyond the hardware.....
My own recollection of Mark Walker's '68 4001(with it's original H/S) is that it's one of the best-sounding 4001's I've ever played......When I was able to sit down for an extended period with my "new" '69, equipped with an 80's period RI H/S, I began to think about how similar my bass sounded to his, even with the later pickup installed.
I can't wait until we get together again and we have a chance to do this, for I have other theories (outside of p/ups) as to why these basses sound so good....The p/ups are a big part of it, but there are other things that should be looked at as well......Look beyond the hardware.....
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
leftybass wrote:If anyone ever wants to do a vintage bass 'shootout' with original vs. RI horseshoe p/ups, I would be glad to put my '69 4001 LH up against a horsey-equipped bass of similar vintage or earlier as a comparison.
My own recollection of Mark Walker's '68 4001(with it's original H/S) is that it's one of the best-sounding 4001's I've ever played......When I was able to sit down for an extended period with my "new" '69, equipped with an 80's period RI H/S, I began to think about how similar my bass sounded to his, even with the later pickup installed.
I can't wait until we get together again and we have a chance to do this, for I have other theories (outside of p/ups) as to why these basses sound so good....The p/ups are a big part of it, but there are other things that should be looked at as well......Look beyond the hardware.....
YES!!!! Wood!!!!! Neck !!!!!
and of course,
Fingers!!!! (or pick for those of you who do)
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Yes....you walk the path of enlightenment, Grasshopper..jaymi wrote:
YES!!!! Wood!!!!! Neck !!!!!
and of course,
Fingers!!!! (or pick for those of you who do)
I was amazed at how the '69 vibrated and resonated when I played it with either a pick OR my fingers....different than any other 4001 I've played. It talks when you play it.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
leftybass wrote:Yes....you walk the path of enlightenment, Grasshopper..jaymi wrote:
YES!!!! Wood!!!!! Neck !!!!!
and of course,
Fingers!!!! (or pick for those of you who do)
I was amazed at how the '69 vibrated and resonated when I played it with either a pick OR my fingers....different than any other 4001 I've played. It talks when you play it.
I have had 82 of them now...I better know a LITTLE something about them
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
leftybass wrote:Yes....you walk the path of enlightenment, Grasshopper..jaymi wrote:
YES!!!! Wood!!!!! Neck !!!!!
and of course,
Fingers!!!! (or pick for those of you who do)
I was amazed at how the '69 vibrated and resonated when I played it with either a pick OR my fingers....different than any other 4001 I've played. It talks when you play it.
There is nothing better than the resonance of a 40 year old piece of wood that has cured and dried out...this is the main reason why I will NOT buy a new one...
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Oh I don't know .. a v68 re-issue would get my attention !
"It's Red Jim, but not as we know it...."
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
82?? LOL...Yes, quite an achievement.jaymi wrote:leftybass wrote:Yes....you walk the path of enlightenment, Grasshopper..jaymi wrote:
YES!!!! Wood!!!!! Neck !!!!!
and of course,
Fingers!!!! (or pick for those of you who do)
I was amazed at how the '69 vibrated and resonated when I played it with either a pick OR my fingers....different than any other 4001 I've played. It talks when you play it.
I have had 82 of them now...I better know a LITTLE something about them
What's scary Jaymi, is that after getting this one, I dunno where I can go from here. It is pretty much all I've ever wanted out of a Rickenbacker bass. Ever held THE ONE in your hands..?? Man....
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
HELLO!!! Did someone mention V68?
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
[/quote]
82?? LOL...Yes, quite an achievement.
What's scary Jaymi, is that after getting this one, I dunno where I can go from here. It is pretty much all I've ever wanted out of a Rickenbacker bass. Ever held THE ONE in your hands..?? Man....[/quote]
That is the reason why I have had 82....Many of them were great but NONE of them were "the one"...the one that was closest was a JG 74 with a mirror guard....gotta get that picture scanned one of these days. had it refretted and man, did it play great!!! Bigger neck etc...this is why I have a fondness for 74s
82?? LOL...Yes, quite an achievement.
What's scary Jaymi, is that after getting this one, I dunno where I can go from here. It is pretty much all I've ever wanted out of a Rickenbacker bass. Ever held THE ONE in your hands..?? Man....[/quote]
That is the reason why I have had 82....Many of them were great but NONE of them were "the one"...the one that was closest was a JG 74 with a mirror guard....gotta get that picture scanned one of these days. had it refretted and man, did it play great!!! Bigger neck etc...this is why I have a fondness for 74s
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Simmons - Thanks for the kind words on my '68 4001! It's definitely my favorite to play for the all-around niceties it features - the vintage pickups & electronics of course, and you bring up an important issue with the wood & hardware. The '60s basses seem to have a better resonant quality than the basses with the "skunk-stripe" neck which was introduced... when? 1970? And the radius of the '68 fretboard is much smaller than preceeding and following years, which makes for a more pronounced arc, and for me, ease of playing. My '64 has a much flatter radius, but the neck is even thinner than the '68, which makes it VERY fast.
Back to the pickups - the specific tonal difference I notice between the original '60s horseshoe PUs, and the reissues is the RIs have a more pronounced midrange. The difference in ohm rating between the pickups I have is 7.5k vs 14k! The bass I have RI pickups on is a '79 with the skunk stripe, so that effects the tone slightly as well. Even with the great difference in amplitudes, the way the horseshoes and toasters work in conjunction with each other is basically the same. Same with 4001/4003s with high gain pickups. Within all these different pickup models, there's the same unique phasing in certain frequencies which really is what defines the classic Rick tone - (capacitor or not.) When I plug in my super loud V63 bass into my amp after playing my significantly quieter '68 or '64, I get a much fatter, distorted tone. But after I back off the amp gain a bit and scoop a little out of the midrange, it's in essence the same kind of tone as the '60s basses. Not quite as warm, but the twang is still there.
The way the tone knobs on the bass itself is yet another factor which could REALLY prolong this post, so I'll merely acknowledge it as a factor and stop there.
By the way, Simmons - congrats on snagging that '69. They are like butter, aren't they!
Back to the pickups - the specific tonal difference I notice between the original '60s horseshoe PUs, and the reissues is the RIs have a more pronounced midrange. The difference in ohm rating between the pickups I have is 7.5k vs 14k! The bass I have RI pickups on is a '79 with the skunk stripe, so that effects the tone slightly as well. Even with the great difference in amplitudes, the way the horseshoes and toasters work in conjunction with each other is basically the same. Same with 4001/4003s with high gain pickups. Within all these different pickup models, there's the same unique phasing in certain frequencies which really is what defines the classic Rick tone - (capacitor or not.) When I plug in my super loud V63 bass into my amp after playing my significantly quieter '68 or '64, I get a much fatter, distorted tone. But after I back off the amp gain a bit and scoop a little out of the midrange, it's in essence the same kind of tone as the '60s basses. Not quite as warm, but the twang is still there.
The way the tone knobs on the bass itself is yet another factor which could REALLY prolong this post, so I'll merely acknowledge it as a factor and stop there.
By the way, Simmons - congrats on snagging that '69. They are like butter, aren't they!
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Another factor in resonance - the old aluminum tailpieces vs the newer steel ones. BIG difference in some cases.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
The badass 1 that was mounted to my 77 before I got it makes a huge impact in the tone...my bass is VERY focused....I can emulate a lot of different tones with this bass (which is why it is not leaving me anytime soon)...I did a session on saturday and it was smokin!walker wrote:Another factor in resonance - the old aluminum tailpieces vs the newer steel ones. BIG difference in some cases.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Mark, the newer RIC tailpieces are die cast zinc, which has a very similar density to aluminum. However, the aluminum one is solid and usually seems to sit flatter on the bass. There seems to be two different materials for the bridges as well, although not along the same time lines. Most of mine have been zinc also, but I've had a 70's one or two that felt quite heavy. It was either a thicker casting or as you say, steel.