Baby's In Black

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:41 am

photo 1 is in "A Cellar Full Of Noise" by Epstein. I don't have it here (it's at home) but maybe there's a caption as to where it was taken. I think his only comment was that his tongue was out.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:04 pm

You don't see many photos of Lennon's guitar when it was still mapleglo. Doesn't look right on him.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:04 pm

Thanks for posting those Peter. You're correct that photo 1 is the Merseybeat Awards at The Majestic Ballroom in December of '62. What's cool about that picture is if you look at the knobs on John's '58 325 and compare them to Paul's Hofner knobs you can see V81 doesn't have Hofner knobs on it. Looks more like the knobs used on Selmer amps or possibly another type of radio knob. The other two photos are from The Majestic Ballroom too. The second shot is a little maddening as the drummer isn't shown. This picture could be July 28 or August 17 of 1962. John's tan AC-15 is in the photo and he bought that on July 27 from Hessy's. Pete was playing with them on July 28 but on August 17 Johnny Hutchinson of The Big Three filled in for Pete after his sacking on August 16. Both Pete and Johnny had white Premier kits so it's impossible to tell which date it would be for certain(any later dates would show Ringo's dark brown Premier kit). It would have been amazing to have a second shot of Johnny Hutchinson drumming with The Beatles(the first would be the Larry Parnes audition at The Blue Angel early in 1960). Still working on the other photos trying to piece together a closer date for the refinish.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:15 pm

Bob, I agree with you mostly. The '58 doesn't look correct on John when it's maple-glo and he's wearing a suit and tie. In their black leathers maple-glo looks right and a black 325 wouldn't fit into the picture. I guess I've been looking at these photos for too many years!

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:24 pm

Larry: I believe the knobs of which you speak are Grundig radio knobs.

jwilli · Post by **jwilli** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:33 pm

Heh, Paul looks ****** in that first photo......

beatlesgear · Post by **beatlesgear** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:24 am

Could be Selmer knobs, but it's hard to compare between McCartney's bass because of the pearl background, instead of black on Lennon's '58. We tried putting Selmer knobs on a 325 and it didn't look like what is seen in some of the other pics that we dug up.

beatlefan · Post by **beatlefan** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:51 am

Brian, that's the DUMBEST thing you've EVER said, just GET OFF the stage and let us GO!!

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:13 am

...and put your tongue back in your mouth!

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:00 am

It may just be the angle, but in pic #3 in Nick's last post they really look like Hofner knobs, but in #4 they look like they may be too deep in the center. Have the Hofner knobs been totally eliminated from the choices?

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:48 am

John, I've eliminated the Hofner knobs(in my mind anyway). The guitar was refinished in Liverpool and after-market Hofner knobs would not have been available at Hessy's or Rushworth's. Nobody would be bothered to go out of their way and order some from Germany. Who would rob four Hofner knobs off two violin basses or Club guitars? Or who would rob four knobs off a Selmer amp for that matter? I'm fairly certain they are some type of radio knob. The four pictures Nick posted show the correct 'knob sequence' after the guitar was sprayed black. The first shot shows the electronics being worked on as one pot is inside the control cavity. The second picture shows the guitar after the electronics are fixed and the pot and knob are placed back on the pickguard. Photo three has one knob lost and photo four has two knobs missing(it would soon be refretted by Burns and they would add four Burns knobs). That first photo was taken in Germany at The Star Club in either November or December of 1962. The guitar looks like it was just recently painted(not much wear) at this time. If John had the guitar painted as early as September of '62(as some claim) I can't imagine he would wait two or three months to have the electronics worked on. There may not be enough pictures from this era to prove my point. Most photos show John with the J-160E at this point in time because it was new and who doesn't enjoy playing a new guitar, and the '58 would be left out of the pictures because it was getting refinished. I'm still looking for more photos though. Anybody else have any thoughts on this madness we all love?

beatlesgear · Post by **beatlesgear** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:37 am

The knobs could be from anywhere, an instrument store could have had them, just the same as any radio shop as well. At this point, the Beatles were playing all over the place and things were starting to get busy for them. Due to some very good unseen photos and "correct" dates being applied to some already misidentified photos, I think we have norrowed down an accurate date of the refin in 1962. Problem is, the guys would cream me if I released that info before we put it in the Beatles Gear site.

RE:the J160E, there is a minimum two month window in 1963 where Lennon is only photographed with the J160E, then the Burns knobs, new switch, Bigsby paint removed, etc. show up on the 325. This happens directly after that period where the two knobs are left on the guitar. There are certainly still a lot of gaps to fill in when it comes to exact dates.

admin · Post by **admin** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:08 pm

Larry: The guitar is still natural as of September 4, 1962 in the Dezo Hoffman photo. I have no reason to doubt this date. Do you?

Your July and August photo #2 (July 28 or August 17 of 1962) while most interesting in its own right, doesn't add much additional information as we know that the natural finish lasted at least until after September 4, 1962.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:05 pm

Peter, you're correct that my July or August photo doesn't make much sense(doesn't help our goal). The September 4 photo is definitely correct and so far I haven't been able to locate any later dates than that with the '58 in blonde but I'll keep searching. On the other hand, I haven't found any photos before November(or possibly December) of the '58 sprayed black. John played that new J-160E a lot during this period so photos of V81 are scarce/none. That's why I was trying to date the photos by the way the knobs were lost. I believe the first photo of the guitar in black is the one from the Star Club where they are working on the electronics(November or December of '62). Then when they get back to Liverpool for the Merseybeat Poll Winners Award the guitar is fixed with all four knobs back on. Am I legally insane yet?

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:10 am

Here is another photo that may narrow things down somewhat. It is another photo of Lennon playing at the Tower Ballroom, New Brighton using his Model 325 painted black. The Tower dates for The Beatles after September 4, 1962 were:

1. September 14, 1962

2. September 21, 1962 - Rory Storm's Birthday bash which coincides with Mike McCartney photo showing the Model 325 painted black

3. October 12, 1962 - with Little Richard

4. November 23, 1962 - 12th Annual Lancashire and Cheshire Arts Ball

5. December 7, 1962 - Seven group line-up performance

Brian Epstein would certainly not have allowed The Beatles to perform in front of an audience with Little Richard looking any less than their best. Knowing these arrangements were on the horizon it seems to me that all of the stops would have been pulled out in advance of this critical evening, October 12, 1962.

Also, Mike McCartney would have certainly remembered whether the photo he took was at the Little Richard show or in the week preceding the show.

While my evidence is not conclusive and I would agree there is ample margin for error, it seems most likely to me that this September 21, 1962 date close to the truth. I would also consider that the Vox Fawn amplifiers in the Mike McCartney photo may suggest a date closer to September than later in November or December 1962. Again, more speculation on my part.

I still think that somewhere between September5 and September 21, 1962 is more likely than later in the year.

I believe the key photo to narrow down the date of the refinishing is displayed in the program for Little Richard's Tower show of October 12, 1962. Chadwick photographed the Beatles with Little Richard at this show and I am hoping that the Model 325 in black will be seen in this photo.

Pulling out all the stops here and "Cast Your Fate To The Wind" it is to be remembered that Billy Kinsley presented the instrument to Lennon at a lunchtime session of the Cavern. If you grant the argument that Billy is correct and Lennon was waiting to get his hands on the new Gibson J160E before refinishing the Model 325 then he would have waited until September 11, 1962 to send the Capri out. The lunchtime session after the 11th of September and before the 21 of September 1962 were September 13, 16, 17, 19 and 20, 1962. This would narrow the refinishing time down to somewhere between September 12 and 20, 1962 as the group was in London on September 11, 1962 at EMI studios recording and was slated for the Tower Ballroom gig on September 21, 1964.

Perhaps one final point might be made here. There have been arguments put forth that Lennon could easily use his Gibson J160E at any point after September 11, 1962 after it arrived. It is to be remembered that he was typically using a VOX AC-15 or AC-30 over this period in later 1962. The pickup on this instrument through these amplifiers would certaily be prone to feedback at high volumes. This was a time in which the volumes were particularly loud and the resulting feedback would not have set well with Lennon. When the Beatles started to rock, during live performances, the J160E's would not have fared too well and I suspect went back in the case. My point is that Lennon would not want his 325 too far away from him during the big gigs.