The "Loudness War"

[deaconblues]

Discovered this today, and was wondering if anybody has thoughts on it. The effect is especially noticeable on Rush's Vapor Trails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

[cjj]

I've actually noticed this on various CDs I have, the old ones are significantly quieter than new ones. It's particularly annoying when using something like iTunes/iPod with random selections. You have to keep messing with the volume to have it sound good...

[winston]

It is a very commonly used technique in rap music. That's why the bass seems to roll and bleed into everything else on the track when rap is played. This is the main reason why I don't like rap. It has a predefined dynamic range. Nothing is left to the listener to discern.

[qwezirider]

Try Metallica's last album. Truly painful to listen to. I've seen quotes from Lars where he doesn't hear the problem. He's had his head too far up a drum for too many years if he cannot hear the clipping all over the place every few milliseconds.

[Clint]

When we would have a party, my wife and I would load up the CD player's cartridge with 6 CDs, press random and have music all night. Can't do that anymore, the volume is all over the place.

I read somewhere that loudness is an easy way to generate excitement. Something about the human fight or flight response.

[whojamfan]

It is a frustrating deal when you plop down your hard earned cash and get a turd that is undynamic and blasting. I feel it does the artist a disservice, destroying the nuances and sublties of their art, as well as turning the listener off as it sounds like everything else. I turn on the radio and listen to this new stuff, and it seems to have the tone of Niagra Falls, loud, monotone, and washed out.

I can't stand that pumping effect, as it makes me seasick. Playing live for so many years, I know how sound is supposed to behave when it comes out of an instrument, especially the drums. Sounds need to occur naturally, and not at the expense of the loudest note hogging the stage. I'm sorry, but cymbals don't immediately attack, compress and signifigantly drop, than gradually rise back up in volume as they decay, or the surrounding sounds go lower in volume. Bass doesn't get more prominent when their is less overall sound, such as a bass solo, you just hear the exisiting tone and volume level more clearly. Nothing jumps out live, unless intentionally boosted, and sounds annoying as nails on a chalkboard in a recording. It kills me to hear these bands live, as the difference in fidelity and vibe is astronaumical.

I find it quite annoying the difference in volume between commercials, radio and television programs, and recorded medium. Sound exploding and whispering on my listening devices really turns me off to listening to the radio, watching TV, or buying new CDs. I still make analog cassette tapes of what I like to play in my truck. This includes brand new and centuries old music, but everything is at a comparable level, thanks to my amazing abilities at operating a pair of "recording level" knobs

[winston]

I have those same amazing abilities Mike...................and I use them too

[wayang]

I bought an 'authorized' King Crimson live bootleg LP called "Indisciple Mining Rocks" at Bleeker Bob's many years ago...it's a recording of a show they did at SUNY Stonybrook. Between tunes, audience members at the back of the hall can be heard screaming "Louder!"...finally Fripp, in his best academic/librarian voice, says into the mic: "We've had some requests to play louder...if I might make a suggestion, perhaps you might try listening more attentively."

Boy, those days are long gone...

[akhv]

http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/10 ... Limit.aspx
The article on "loudness wars" that made example of Rush reissues is seven years old. In the meantime problem got so much worse. Looks like it's not a big deal for some people but it is for me. I just couldn't listen to the latest McCartney album, I liked the songs but the album is limited to the point of being unbearable to listen for me. Same with the latest Rolling Stones album, Clapton's etc. Reissues are also trashed, for instance the Beatles Capitol boxes.
Okay, now the loudness war is aknowledged as a problem, and I think it's a very good sign. I suppose that several years from now there is going to be a reverse trend. Once marketing people realize that people don't like this compressed-to-death sound, there is going to be a new wave of reissues, "New unlimited remaster" with "extended dynamic range" and so on. Then I'll finally listen to McCartney's Memory Almost Full.

[cassius987]

It is a very commonly used technique in rap music. That's why the bass seems to roll and bleed into everything else on the track when rap is played. This is the main reason why I don't like rap. It has a predefined dynamic range. Nothing is left to the listener to discern.

Dead wrong, you're not listening to the right artists apparently. Fugees, the Roots... give that stuff a shot. Also some of Tricky's stuff might be called rap.

As for the loudness war, I do hate it a bit. I think it favors certain genres (re: Winston's point) in a way. Eventually, though, I think we're not going to be putting all of our music in a common format like we do now (i.e. all of it goes to the radio or to the computer), or it will get so stratified that everyone will listen to things of the same "loudness".

But yeah, it does irritate me as someone who tried to record a really solid album and found, to his dismay, that LOUDNESS was a factor these days. By the end of the mixing we had gotten as much gain as we could out of it and it still didn't quite compare to contemporary records. In other words it was good music and a good mix that was not LOUD enough to get famous.

[winston]

Oh I don't think that I am "dead wrong" as you put it. I described my experience with rap and said it was a pretty commonly used technique.

I have listened to a lot of rap over the years and in particular when it is played on high wattage car stereos and boom boxes, the trait I describe is most certainly there.

Now I may be wrong where your taste in music applies and if so then that would probably be something that I could appreciate.

I like all types of music, so long as I can hear the tone and pitch of the instruments clearly and the music is not ruined by a muddy production technique. Great vocals too are a must for me.

[whojamfan]

But yeah, it does irritate me as someone who tried to record a really solid album and found, to his dismay, that LOUDNESS was a factor these days. By the end of the mixing we had gotten as much gain as we could out of it and it still didn't quite compare to contemporary records. In other words it was good music and a good mix that was not LOUD enough to get famous.

This is why proper mastering is just as, or more important, than a good mix. When you have all of the record levels and mix levels maxed to capacity, you have no room left to work in the mastering stage. It's like a preamp control, once you turn it up past a certain point, all of the compression and EQ in the world will not clean it up, but will just decrease the dynamic range and raise the noise floor when trying to boost the track in the mix. This is part of the reason that bass and acoustic instruments are DI'd in to the board at the initial stages of recording, so they can tweak the jones out of the mic'd signal and blend the full range one back in to give the dynamic range and clarity back.

Producers and engineers are in a position of immediate gratification for the artists these days. If the premastered mix isn't slammin'/thumpin'/bumpin'/killin' to the point of distortion for the artists, they may get(seen it)tempermental about how the people recording have no idea of their vision and take their biz elsewhere. Most artist have no idea of how the recording process works, and get annoyed at how long the process takes. Too many want to hear radio quality finished products off of the board mix, and think folks don't know what they're doing if they don't get it. So, in order to keep the "next big thing" happy, they give them what they want. By the time it gets to the mastering house(if it gets there at all)there isn't much room to do anything that doesn't detract dynamic range and increase listening fatigue.

A lot of engineers are also DI'ing electric guitar, as many programs allow what's known as reamping to the recording process. This means they can take the clean, straight signal and run it back out to a variety of amps or simulators to scroll through multiple tone options without the player having to do a million takes of a track. This is how the pros get a Marshall JCM800, Vox AC30, and a Fender Twin all playing the same part simultaneously in one take, where they are mixed together accenting the best of each to make one huge guitar track. The levels have to start low in order to make this work, and the dynamic range must be preserved or you shoot yourself in the foot.

The introduction of samples and loops in to music has really contributed to this syndrome, as they are already mixed and mastered pieces of audio, and to try to integrate them in to your music using the same guidelines as conventional instruments, you run in to major level and "percieved loudness" problems. Sort of like when you overdub a guitar over a cd on to a computer, never really sounds quite right. Most think that compressing the **** out of it and then boosting it back up will tame the beast, but it just ends up causing that "pumping" effect, which is then tried to be compensated for with eqs and limiters. Now you have pretty much killed any real dynamic range, so an enhancer or maximizer is used to try to bring life back in to it, which again shifts the eq curve and further kills dynamic range. From there it's just a series of trying to hide the lack of dynamics in bass boosts and max mixing which in the end yeilds a loud, unlistenable product.

So, unless actually recording to tape, record slightly below the red, mix at the red, and let a professional mastering house do what they get paid to do. Any maximization of volume can be done there without compromising dynamics.

[jps]

I get ticked off at the movies. It seems film sound engineers love to maximize the dynamic range with way too quite dialogue and WAY too loud SFX!

[kiramdear]

I hope they don't mess up with the new Beatles' releases. I'd like to be able to shuffle them with my other Beatles' stuff.

Then again, I rarely use disks anymore, and iTunes has a pretty good sound check feature. iPod has its advantages. You just have to put high-quality files in there.

[cassius987]

Oh I don't think that I am "dead wrong" as you put it. I described my experience with rap and said it was a pretty commonly used technique.

Have you heard the artists I listed? Seriously, they aren't playing the same games as the guys always popping up on MTV and radio.

Just saying--you have every right to disagree with me and if you do that's poifectly kewl.