08 4003 - Neck Twist Paranoia

[fillerbunny]

Hi,

My first post here I think, been lurking on and off for years though. I'm a 27 year old Finn whose 10 year GAS came to an end last fall with the acquisition of a MG 4003, manufactured about a year ago from now. Posting here because I prefer the vibe here to the corporate alternative.

My problem is of a paranoid sort - looking up (or down) the neck the headstock doesn't quite seem to align with the body, i.e. visually there seems to be a slight twist to the neck. I had the bass looked at by an experienced guy at a reputable store, he didn't notice anything wrong with it and told me not to worry. Still as I'm the kind a guy that worries to no end about his gear being perfect, particularily a Grail-like treasure like a Rick, I can't help but wonder. The neck seems straight on both sides of the fretboard and playability isn't affected. As Rickenbacker basses aren't exactly plentiful here in Finland any more so than anywhere else, I don't really have anything to compare it to.

The bass is under UK warranty and would have to be shipped back there at my expense. This is an extreme option.

Another thing I've been wondering about - the way to measure neck relief seems to differ on who you ask. Most RIC-related sources advise to fret a string on the 1st and 20th frets - doing this I ended up with truss rods maxed and a buzzing bass. The tech I consulted told me that 1st and 17th frets were the way to go as the rods only affect the middle part of the neck and adjusting accordingly seemed to do the job. I'm confused as everywhere I look there's different advice. My previous I've never had problems with.

Yeah, I worry too much, but just the thought that my new bass might be defective makes me sick. Sorry about the long rant, appreciate any input!

[Clint]

The slight twist you think you are seeing may be an optical illusion caused by the strings. The neck can appear slanted from the big, fat E string to the much thinner G. Also, the nut is cut to accommodate the different string sizes, adding to the illusion.

As long as the bass plays well, and you say that it does, I wouldn't worry about it.

[johnallg]

Jouni, first welcome! If it was okayed by a trusted luthier, believe that. When you stand over the bass with it on the floor, and you sight down the neck, be aware you tend to align the neck visually from the headstock wings from that position, and since they are not symetrical and do not meet the neck blank at the same place, it makes it look like a twist. Use the meeting of the nut to the top of the fretboard wood and compare it to where the wings meet the body. If it is twisted you will see it.

Get yourself a 24" (61 cm) straight edge rule - it HAS to be straight and flat along the edge down that length. Then use it on the E string side, and on the G string side, riding the frets and looking for a gap that is different then the other side. Ideally there is no gap, but if one side is different than the other a twist is possible. The rods will correct that.

Don't go looking for ghosts - play that bass!

[cjj]

Welcome! Yes, it is quite possible it's an illusion. I thought the same thing a long time ago on my first 4001. It was fine.

If it looks like this, you definitely have problems.

Torzal.jpg

Of course, this one is made that way...

[doctorwho]

Welcome, Jouni!

I agree with what the others have said. I noticed something similar on a guitar that I am currently restringing and cleaning ... the neck looked like it had a slight twist to it with the strings on it, but with the strings off, it looks fine.

[rickenbrother]

Sometimes the nut being higher on the E string side, such as in the picture below, can give the illusion that the neck has a twist. Sight down the neck and see if the frets are parallel. If the frets all look parallel, the neck is not twisted.

[aceonbass]

Nice turquoise 4003 ya got there Joey!
Incidently, you check the string relief by fretting the string at the first and last fret. If your rods are maxed, something's up though.

[fillerbunny]

Thank you all for your replies and welcomes!

I spent a couple of nights at the rehearsal place fooling around and playing the bass, took the strings off, adjusted the intonation and inspected the neck some more. With the full-width inlays it's pretty hard to see if the frets are parallel, at least to my untrained eye. However using a 60cm metal ruler along the fretboard they looked ok. Visually the headstock seems to twist a bit to the treble side, particularily looking from straight above it with the back of the bass body visible. Again, I can't say if this is normal and if not, if it's just my eyes playing tricks.

As for the neck relief issue, I can't get the neck perfectly straight from the first to last fret without the bass side rod getting maxed. When I got it the bass actually only had a washer under the bass rod nut, I added one myself under the treble nut to get some more room for adjustment for that one. The tech I showed the bass to immediately said the neck is back-bowed and loosened the rods so that the neck is straight from 1st to 17th fret. I could pop a couple of washers more in there, but this seems rediculous. It's supposed to be a new instrument, after all.

Yeah I'm confused and looking for ghosts, hence the title of the topic... but from what I've seen so are most new Rick owners after finally getting the bass they've wanted (and having paid dearly for it). At least I have the courage to play the thing, not just keep it in its case away from any harm

[antipodean]

Hi Jounni, and a belated welcome!

Looking at the pics, the shape of the nut can really mess with how you perceive the neck and headstock. If I block out the nut, the neck looks fine, but if I look at the complete picture, the slope of the nut makes me want to believe the neck is twisted a little (up-bowed a little on the bass side relative to the treble side).

To state what may be a heresy - there is always a small margin for error in setting relief. If the bass plays well from your perspective and the intonation is ok, then don't worry about not having a perfectly flat neck.

[johnallg]

Jouni, any time the truss nuts max out, it is usually because the other end (body end) is digging into softer maple and moving into the neck. Pull the pickguard and look at the acorn nuts on that end of the rods - they should be even with the end of the neck. If they are moving into the neck, pull the rods, use water thin super glue (not the gel kind) to soak into the maple there until it won't accept any more then put the rods back in. Use washers at that end to make the truss nuts at the head end work properly.

[fillerbunny]

The local bass store has - very surprisingly - received two new 4003's, an 08 and an 09 one, so I went to have a look at those for comparison. Neither had the appearance of the neck being twisted, both had headstocks that seemed to be level with the body. So mine's clearly different. Gnnh. Both also had dead straight necks, which mine doesn't seem to be able to pull off.

Jouni, any time the truss nuts max out, it is usually because the other end (body end) is digging into softer maple and moving into the neck. Pull the pickguard and look at the acorn nuts on that end of the rods - they should be even with the end of the neck. If they are moving into the neck, pull the rods, use water thin super glue (not the gel kind) to soak into the maple there until it won't accept any more then put the rods back in. Use washers at that end to make the truss nuts at the head end work properly.

Had a look under the guard - the nuts are slightly below the surface, with the bass side a bit further.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable doing what you described myself. What's really frustrating is that this is a new bass which I think shouldn't be having these issues. One of you Americans would have shipped it back to the factory already, but clearly I don't have that option. Starting to contemplate shipping the bass back to the UK, ouch...

[jingle_jangle]

Jouni, you're in Helsinki, which is a good sized city, and now's the time to make the acquaintance of a good, reputable luthier who can follow the directions given above for stabilizing the end grain inside the neck.

Believe me, this is an easy process (a number of our members have done this themselves), but if you don't feel good doing it, have a luthier do it. He doesn't have to be a Rick specialist, either, as long as he's got patience, a good reputation and ordinary common sense.

[fillerbunny]

Jouni, you're in Helsinki, which is a good sized city, and now's the time to make the acquaintance of a good, reputable luthier who can follow the directions given above for stabilizing the end grain inside the neck.

Believe me, this is an easy process (a number of our members have done this themselves), but if you don't feel good doing it, have a luthier do it. He doesn't have to be a Rick specialist, either, as long as he's got patience, a good reputation and ordinary common sense.

Paul, thanks. I'm looking at a list of local luthiers right now, several of whom I know by name. I hate the feeling that I really shouldn't have to be doing this, and I still don't know what to make of the supposed twist. We'll see.

[johnallg]

Once the rods are stable from hardening the maple and using the washers to give the correct lengths at the headstock end, the twist should come out with the rods being able to work correctly now. What was happening was the twist was pulling on the rod, the maple gave, and the rod moved further up into the neck and the rod was thus loose again and the twist back. Once the rod ends don't move into the maple, the rods can correct the twist and hold the neck straight.

[fillerbunny]

I still haven't gotten around to taking the bass to a luthier, but it seems that the summer with its warmer and more humid climate has helped, and there appears to be very little twist now. That, or my crooked eyesight's straightened out... There's also room for truss rod adjustment now, as I've found myself having to loosen the rods multiple times along the summer. Seems like the neck is backbowed every couple of weeks... the bass hasn't been played a lot lately. I'll have to see how it settles from now on and as the autumn comes.