4004 L Bow Issues

[jingle_jangle]

I suppose the "why" has to do with the design of the neck, length, cross-section, etc. Having not done any quantitative engineering studies, I can't give numbers for modulus of elasticity, torque, or other factors; my statement is based on experience with Ricks, Fenders, Gretsches, and Gibsons, with a smattering of other brands here and there that I've owned and/or worked on.

Going through the topic lists of other single-marque or single-model forums, you won't see nearly as many posts or questions pertaining to neck adjustments, whether you're considering basses or 6- or 12-string guitars.

My own conclusion is that a number of factors--among them material, construction, and design--make Rickenbacker necks more responsive to adjustment than most (or possibly all) others.

I'm often reminded of my own experience with Weber carburetors, when compared to, for instance, Holley models.

Webers are beautifully-made, infinitely adjustable, and thought by many to be difficult to dial in. The phrase that comes to mind is, as above, "responsive to adjustment". A combination of information, experience, an analytical mind, and sensitivity to the task at hand, is what's needed for success in the undertaking. A Holley, OTOH, can often be unboxed and bolted into place, literally turn-key.

Theoretically, a Rick instrument could be the same, but wood is organic and can move about, requiring dialing in. So it's more like a Weber, and a Fender is more like a Holley. Personally, I can't remember the last time I've had to adjust a Fender neck...

There's something satisfying about working on an inanimate artifact and getting it to respond to input, especially if the response reinforces one's experiences with similar situations. It's almost like the object is cooperating and going along. Most agreeable.

Back in the early '90s, when I first built it, I ran a double-pumper Holley on my supercharged 3.0L V6. Good carb, adjustable in basic ways, worked well with the motor and application. An opportunity to acquire a 50DCOE Weber arose, and despite having to fabricate a manifold, I gave it a shot. It took a couple of days of work with jets and float levels to get it right, but the engine came alive...

...and, like a Rickenbacker, it had a sound unlike anything else on the street. Crisp and authoritative.

[jhill0129]

Hi Jason. Are you in the Milwaukee area? Now that we're into the warmer and more humid weather, you may find that tweaking the truss rods will be necessary. Depending on what conditions you have where your bass is stored, this could mean a couple of adjustments per year.

Let me know where you are. I'm in the Milwaukee area.

Yep, I'm in Milwaukee. I took the bass to Wade's this afternoon and they're going to look at it. Out of curiousity, has anyone ever heard of getting a "bad" truss rod? I have a fear that the bass side of the neck has a bum one.

[jingle_jangle]

A truss rod is the single simplest component in this guitar (except maybe for the ground wire...). It consists of a mild steel rod that's threaded at each end. There are two things that could go wrong with it. The threads at either end could strip (from too much enthusiastic "adjusting", usually with the wrong tool), or the rod could actually snap (from way too much enthusiastic tightening, etc.).

These sorts of issues are quite self-evident.

Now, it is possible that the rod is less effective due to the body end hexnut becoming too deeply embedded in the neck end-grain, for which there is a remedy. Simply pull the rod and infuse the end grain around its socket, with water-thin super-glue until it stops being absorbed. Re-insert the rod and carefully snug up, then adjust as usual.

[jhill0129]

Yeah, I pretty much know what they are. I guess I was asking if anyone's ever heard of or had experience with them being bad right from the factory.

[jingle_jangle]

I'd say, not likely. If the factory notes that the rod is becoming embedded as I've described above, they do the infusion thing with super glue.

It is possible, however, that the tech who did your setup at Wade's torqued it enough to imbed it.

In which case, an infusion and possible a washer or two to bring things up to snuff, might be indicated.

[johnallg]

I'm with the idea the rod is embedding at the body end. When I read the original post, that was my first thought. I have one 4003 that the E side is tighter and the G side is just snugged, but that is that particular neck and it is flat and stays put. But since yours has since bowed again, I suspected the maple compression Paul is talking about.

[windchimp]

I've found that my new Cii is suffering from a backbow. I had noticed some fretbuzz after doing some work on her last weekend during which time the bass spent a bit of time on the bench face down (did the stack-knob conversion). A day later it seemed to calm down a bit after spending the night in it's case.

I got out the straight-edge and observed the back-bow high point around the 14th fret, causing the straight-edge to reveal between a "light" 1/16" to a "heavy" 1/32 clearance at the first fret. I popped off the TRC and both nuts were loose.

I'm going to see how this plays out. I'll just snug the nuts and see how things go over the next few weeks, maybe try some heavier gauge Rotos and see that will result in some extra relief I can adjust down. I'm hesitant to send her back to the factory until I am convinced this is a real problem now or possibly in the future. It's not a showstopper - the buzz is only slight but I had hoped a quick adjustment would take care of the issue. Knowing what I now do, it is troubling.

Thoughts?

[rickenbrother]

Scott, I've answered your PM.

[cheyenne]

Thanks Joey.

[badeggs]

I always find these threads very interesting, as anything truss-rod related scares the **** out of me, especially since I like the older gear (and no matter how many times the procedure is explained and diagrammed and described as "really simple" it still seems like I'll snap the thing in half). But anyway...

I've never had to adjust anything on any of my basses. I don't know if that's because I should be doing something that I'm not smart-enough to pick up on, or because of the climate where I live (NJ), or because they've all been rock-solid (and old/settled-in) and don't require any tweaking, or what, but no change of temperature or seasons ever changes how my basses play...

So my question is: Is this kind of "periodic/seasonal maintenance" required for all instruments?

[windchimp]

So my question is: Is this kind of "periodic/seasonal maintenance" required for all instruments?

FWIW, my mindset has always been "if it aint broke, don't fix it". The only reason in my mind to adjust rods is if you start to notice fret buzzzzzzzzzz and subsequently check the neck for relief finding an adjustment is needed. Sometimes just tweaking the action a little higher takes care of the problem. Rod adjustments are easy once you have the correct tools and apply the proper procedure.

My current situation described above is more about this being a brand new bass with a back-bow when tuned to pitch. Nothing short of raising the action will compensate for that situation, and although it is not severe right now if I ever go with lower tension strings it may get worse.


Hence my quandry.

[rickenbrother]

I've found that my new Cii is suffering from a backbow. I had noticed some fretbuzz after doing some work on her last weekend during which time the bass spent a bit of time on the bench face down (did the stack-knob conversion). A day later it seemed to calm down a bit after spending the night in it's case.

I got out the straight-edge and observed the back-bow high point around the 14th fret, causing the straight-edge to reveal between a "light" 1/16" to a "heavy" 1/32 clearance at the first fret. I popped off the TRC and both nuts were loose.

I'm going to see how this plays out. I'll just snug the nuts and see how things go over the next few weeks, maybe try some heavier gauge Rotos and see that will result in some extra relief I can adjust down. I'm hesitant to send her back to the factory until I am convinced this is a real problem now or possibly in the future. It's not a showstopper - the buzz is only slight but I had hoped a quick adjustment would take care of the issue. Knowing what I now do, it is troubling.

Thoughts?

Ross, Tony was having a similar issue with his Cii. The A and D strings would buzz on most frets. The A string buzzed more than the D string. I completely loosened the truss rod nuts on his bass and the neck was still straight and the A string would still buzz.
I'm assuming that even with the switch over at RIC to D'Addario strings for factory installation, that they still use the same .105 .075 .055 .045 gauge strings. We installed the .080 (A) and .065 (D) strings from a D'Addario EXL-170 set and the A and D strings did not buzz. After that, I did not have to give much tightening to the truss rods, the nuts were just snug when I left Tony's house. I told him to keep an eye on it.

Tony, I wish I had at least one more day to work on your Cii!!

[windchimp]

I've found that my new Cii is suffering from a backbow. I had noticed some fretbuzz after doing some work on her last weekend during which time the bass spent a bit of time on the bench face down (did the stack-knob conversion). A day later it seemed to calm down a bit after spending the night in it's case.

<SNIP>

Ross, Tony was having a similar issue with his Cii. The A and D strings would buzz on most frets. The A string buzzed more than the D string. I completely loosened the truss rod nuts on his bass and the neck was still straight and the A string would still buzz.
I'm assuming that even with the switch over at RIC to D'Addario strings for factory installation, that they still use the same .105 .075 .055 .045 gauge strings. We installed the .080 (A) and .065 (D) strings from a D'Addario EXL-170 set and the A and D strings did not buzz. After that, I did not have to give much tightening to the truss rods, the nuts were just snug when I left Tony's house. I told him to keep an eye on it.

Tony, I wish I had at least one more day to work on your Cii!!

Thanks Joey - maybe I'll try some new strings this weekend...I have a bunch of Roto Swing sets in my inventory. If that fails I'll drive to da Bronx and "borrow" something off the GW Bridge - that should do the trick!

[ajish4]

I've found that my new Cii is suffering from a backbow. I had noticed some fretbuzz after doing some work on her last weekend during which time the bass spent a bit of time on the bench face down (did the stack-knob conversion). A day later it seemed to calm down a bit after spending the night in it's case.

I got out the straight-edge and observed the back-bow high point around the 14th fret, causing the straight-edge to reveal between a "light" 1/16" to a "heavy" 1/32 clearance at the first fret. I popped off the TRC and both nuts were loose.

I'm going to see how this plays out. I'll just snug the nuts and see how things go over the next few weeks, maybe try some heavier gauge Rotos and see that will result in some extra relief I can adjust down. I'm hesitant to send her back to the factory until I am convinced this is a real problem now or possibly in the future. It's not a showstopper - the buzz is only slight but I had hoped a quick adjustment would take care of the issue. Knowing what I now do, it is troubling.

Thoughts?

Ross, Tony was having a similar issue with his Cii. The A and D strings would buzz on most frets. The A string buzzed more than the D string. I completely loosened the truss rod nuts on his bass and the neck was still straight and the A string would still buzz.
I'm assuming that even with the switch over at RIC to D'Addario strings for factory installation, that they still use the same .105 .075 .055 .045 gauge strings. We installed the .080 (A) and .065 (D) strings from a D'Addario EXL-170 set and the A and D strings did not buzz. After that, I did not have to give much tightening to the truss rods, the nuts were just snug when I left Tony's house. I told him to keep an eye on it.

Tony, I wish I had at least one more day to work on your Cii!!

So far, so good Joey....She has been rock solid ever since!

[badeggs]

Cool, thanks for your thoughts on that, Ross. I agree - if it ain't broke...