Hot Toasters vs. Hi-Gains

[jimk]

If hot toasters are rated at 11 to 12K ohms let's say, and hi-gains are also rated at 11 to 12k ohms, what then would be the advantage of swapping out one for the other? Is it done purely for cosmetic reasons, because the toasters look cool? Do I understand the measurements correctly (if not in number, then in fact)?
It would seem to me that they might sound very similar, if I have the general idea correct.
JimK

[collin]

IIRC, the internal construction is different, magnets/wire is different, and Hi Gains are more like 14K (don't quote me on that!).

That said, I do think they sound very different. Hot toasters are my favorite pickup for six string Rics, and Hi Gains never quite got the same sound for me...

[JakeK]

The hot toasters in my 360/12V64 are rather jangly, with compression, of course. Without compression, they're kinda muddy.

[britinvasion]

Hi Gains have adjustable pole pieces FWIW.

[jimk]

Yeah, I know a little about the internal construction of each type of pickup. But somehow I just thought one was no hotter than the other. I'm not much of a student of electronics, or the physics of electricity.

Just for the record, I'm quite satisfied with the high gains on my guitar. I'm just curious about the sonic differences and the electrical output, is all.

JimK

[weemac]

Eq wise they both sound kind of the same, however they respond different differently to pick attack and gain etc
I feel that the hot toaster would go into overdrive a bit smoother and be a bit more even when string bending.
The Hi-gain would have of course that "stun gun" effect when you hit it hard and also that effect just after the attack which I find best to describe as "slight fart!" (the HB-1s have it too)
The attack on the toasters is faster and clearer but not as brutal...

This applies to both bass and guitar..

Eden.

[wmthor]

My 1997 has the hot toasters, the 360 had the hi-gains. and the tone was so close between the two (at least to my ears). In order to have some difference between the two, I swapped the hi-gains for Ric's humbuckers. Now I'm a very happy camper.

[jimk]

Eden & Richard, your reports and observations are rather what I suspected. Thanks.
JimK

[Janglyman]

I think the toasters are more microphonic and pick up the harmonics better than the hi-gains

[paologregorio]

I think the toasters are more microphonic and pick up the harmonics better than the hi-gains

Hmm, the function of individual Alnico polepiece magnets rather than a single ceramic bar magnet traversing the breadth of the pickup on the underside and steel pole pieces perhaps?

[soundmasterg]

The metal content of a pickup contributes greatly to the overall sound. The high gains have ceramic magnets which are not metal, so the pickup is not loaded down by eddy currents as much as the toaster pickup. The toaster has 6 individual alnico magnets, which are made of different kinds of metals. Eddy currents reduce the high end. There are different kinds of alnico, (alnico 2, alnico3, alnico4, alnico5, alnico6, alnico8, etc) and each has different metal content. What that means is that you can take a given pickup coil and swap in magnets of different composition and strength and this changes the sound. Most RIC toasters that I have seen use alnico 5. I have a toaster that used to be a high gain. I took out the pole piece screws and drilled the holes out so I could put alnico magnets in like the toasters. I didn't glue them in yet so I can stick shortie alnico 5 magnets in, regular length alnico 5 magnets, alnico 3 magnets, etc. Each changes the sound and output power, and you can see the inductance, ac resistance, and Q change for the pickup each time a magnet is changed. These are variables that can tell you a bit about what is happening inside the pickup without actually playing it, but to really get a handle on how the sound changes, you have to play it.

The amount of wire on a coil is what the dc resistance reading is, and is all it means. You can get some rough coorelation with the power that a pickup will have by the DC resistance number, but it doesn't always hold true. The Hi Gains are more powerful than the 12k toasters largely because the ceramic magnet is more powerful than the alnico magnets in the toasters. The 14k Hi Gains do have a bit more wire on the pickup bobbin, but not a ton. It increases power very marginally, but also increases the mids and bass, and reduces the high end. The arrangement of the magnet in the pickup also makes a difference, and having a bar under the coil instead of 6 individual magnets usually results in a more focused and powerful sound. The more wire than is on a pickup, the more the highs are choked. The Hi Gains have too much bass for me when used in the neck position on a guitar and bass, unless you unwind it down to the 70's high gain specs of around 9k to 10k. I like them in the bridge position however. I like hot toasters in the bridge but not really in the other positions, though I haven't tried those in the neck on a bass yet.

As others have said, the feel of the pickup is what the biggest difference is with the hi gains and the hot toasters. The toasters are more touch responsive and more articulate and clean, though with lots of distortion on the sound, you won't notice as much. Any time you are trying to compare pickups or amps or guitars or anything like that, it is best to play on a really clean amp....that way you can hear the differences easier without distortion clouding things up.

greg

[weemac]

I had a hot toaster in the neck position of a 4003 (1" spacing) and it co-operated well with the Hi-gain treble pickup and sounded generally good! In the 1/2 position I suspect that it would have been a bit muddy...

I also suspect that a vintage spec toaster would not be best suited to the 1" spacing as it will loose a bit of power (string movement) compared to the 1/2" spacing.

Eden.