Fretfully Fretless

Razorback · Post by **Razorback** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:32 am

I may have the chance to pick myself up a nice Fretless 4003 MID but I've never played a fretless before. For those that know, is it much of an adjustment? Anything I should consider or be concerned about? I kind of like the idea of no fret buzz but have this nagging feeling it would be a much different beast compared to a regular fretted bass. I know Joshua plays a FL, are there very many others around here?

rickenbrother · Post by **rickenbrother** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:46 am

When playing fretless you really need to constantly pay close attention to the notes with your ears so your intonation stays good. Cheat lines on fretless basses will not ensure that you will play in good intonation.
I love my fretless Rick basses, they are great!

Just a few threads below this one:

Forumite Rickenbacker Fretless Bass Guitar Count

cassius987 · Post by **cassius987** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:10 am

rickenbrother wrote:Cheat lines on fretless basses will not ensure that you will play in good intonation.

+1. In fact, they hinder your playing because they fool you into thinking they are accurate regarding intonation, when in fact it is impossible to set up a bass so that every fret line is right on the note even with great intonation work on the bridge. Gary Willis writes about this in 101 Bass Tips.

If you already play a 33.25'' scale bass such as a Ric, your muscle memory is already there to an extent, and you just need to sit down with the new fretless and learn some easy songs on it *very* well for a few weeks. You will learn pretty quickly how to achieve the best intonation and sound without having to keep your eyes on your fingers and it will become subconscious before you know it. While I do look at my hand when I am making position changes sometimes, I don't actually look at it for precise intonation--that's how you fool yourself. Learn to use your ears (it's a lot easier than people think--I was worried at first but the learning curve is not very steep at all).

pringlw · Post by **pringlw** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:05 am

One of my Ricks is a fretless. The adjustment was easier than I expected. I would not have a fretless as my only bass anymore (I did for years), but I really appreciate having it as an option. A few things about a fretless;

First, they can be played really fast because you can set the action incredibly low. With no worry about fret buzz, you can set the action so low that you are basically just tapping on the string to complete the note. Second, the "growl" of a Rickenbacker takes on a more woody, almost upright quality when you are playing a fretless. A sample of my fretless to show the point: I've posted it here before so you may have seen it, but it showcases how different the tone is.

Razorback · Post by **Razorback** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:04 pm

Thanks for the tips everyone. I figured there would be a tradeoff intonation wise with no frets there to keep you honest. Don't think I'm going to be getting this one anyway, buyer won't ship and doesn't own a car to meet me part way apparently.

FretlessOnly · Post by **FretlessOnly** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:57 pm

Frankly, I don't think Rick represents a true fretless anyway. It doesn't sound woody. It sounds pretty good, but I'm not convinced. So don't take this the wrong way; I do really like Ricks, but in an FL application, I'm not sold (yet?).

I know others love 'em, but I'd have to say that my Ken Smith FL6, Warwick Corvette FL and Fender Jazz FL rank above my 4003FL MID in terms of tone. I dunno; maybe I just need to adjust the poles on my PUs to get a better sound. I know Joshua posted on this a while ago somewhere around here.

But you really ought to get a FL sometime, and going cheap to start is probably your best bet. And yes, by all means, DO NOT GET FRET LINES ON A FRETLESS FINGERBOARD! A clean board with side dots is all you need along with a set of ears, which I'm assuming you've already got installed.

FL can either be easy or hard, depending on how you play. For example, I started playing (fretted) bass with a fixed position and fingering scales all in one position, only switching positions when needed. This is a bear on FL, because you can no longer rely on beiong off by a quarter inch and still getting the correct pitch. You need to move positions much more often on FL. Over the years, I have developed more of a sliding style that fits very nicely with FL.

cassius987 · Post by **cassius987** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:51 am

FretlessOnly wrote:Frankly, I don't think Rick represents a true fretless anyway. It doesn't sound woody. It sounds pretty good, but I'm not convinced. So don't take this the wrong way; I do really like Ricks, but in an FL application, I'm not sold (yet?).

I know others love 'em, but I'd have to say that my Ken Smith FL6, Warwick Corvette FL and Fender Jazz FL rank above my 4003FL MID in terms of tone. I dunno; maybe I just need to adjust the poles on my PUs to get a better sound. I know Joshua posted on this a while ago somewhere around here.

I am no fan of the fretless Fender J to be honest, but I like the other two you list. This is all just a matter of opinion about tone, and if you don't like how my stuff sounds, or William's, or Joey's, or Chris Brubeck's for that matter then you'll probably never be convinced that the 4003FL (or 4001FL) is any good. Please bear in mind that I did switch to double Toasters for a reason, though. I found fretless with Hi-Gains to be doable but not optimal for myself. I don't know if that would make a difference for you or not, but it could.

We all know how this is--some people are downright opposed to Rics in general. I am not a big fan of Jazz Basses altogether (including the "boutique" ones) but they have numerous fans. (I'm no Fender hater; I love me some P Bass. Also, I have owned three Jazz Basses previously; it just took me some time to realize that they're not what people often make them out to be*, kind of like what others have said about Rics and Ric fans.) It's all just opinion. To answer the OP, the best thing is always to try before you buy. I know this can be hard to pull off, but with some searching I have been able to play test two 4004s among others--and many people claim that the 4004 is an impossibly rare specimen. You just have to do some searching and be willing to drive a little ways sometimes...

*This happened about the same time I got my first Ric. I basically quit Jazz Basses cold turkey. It was a stark transition but I'm really glad I did it... YMMV.

EDIT: For reference, here is a clip of me playing, and Joey + Brian Medway follows below that... William's cover of "Brown Eyed Girl" is above. The three should paint a decent picture of what a 4003FL can potentially do--among, truthfully, many other disparate noises. I assume one could be setup for a pretty grinding kind of fretless as well.

(^there are several more vids of me with this group on YT... just do a search if you're curious, Bright Size Life is a fun one^)

Joey (4001FL with some foam mute action) + Brian
http://www.joeysbassnotes.com/mp3/Georgia.mp3

FretlessOnly · Post by **FretlessOnly** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:09 am

I actually don't care all that much for the Fender Jazz in general, but I found a fretless MIJ about 10 years ago for under $200, so I jumped at it. I keep rounds on it for the most part, with ridiculously high action and the fingerboard can handle them just fine. This one Fender Jazz is very cool to me, but it's an exception, for sure.

Now, onto FL in general: in my mind, fretless is the only real way to get a bass to speak like the human condition. With a fretted instrument, you can use vibrato, and even finger pressure to make a note speak, or you can slap and pull, for a certain, very specific sound, but only a FL will allow for true vocal-like timbre. It takes some extra work to modify your technique, but the results are well worth it.

cassius987 · Post by **cassius987** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:10 am

FretlessOnly wrote:Now, onto FL in general: in my mind, fretless is the only real way to get a bass to speak like the human condition. With a fretted instrument, you can use vibrato, and even finger pressure to make a note speak, or you can slap and pull, for a certain, very specific sound, but only a FL will allow for true vocal-like timbre. It takes some extra work to modify your technique, but the results are well worth it.

So true. Great observation.

EDIT: Here's another clip for the OP to check out featuring RRF forumite Bill Henshell:

rickenbrother · Post by **rickenbrother** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:45 am

Today at the Eleven Seven Ricken Heaven So Cal Minicon, Scott Jehlik (S4001) tried my 4001FL that I used in Brian's recording of "Georgia On My Mind".

This is from Scott's post in that thread:

s4001 wrote:Joey's 4001FL - well,..... hot fruggun dayum!!! That thing puts out MWAH up to 11! With flats, nonetheless.

Damn, RAS.....

Link to Scott's Post

FretlessOnly · Post by **FretlessOnly** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:16 am

I finally took my TI Jazz flats off my '08 4003FL and strung it with LaBella Deep Talkin' Bass flats (my favorite flatwound string by leaps and bounds), removed the pickup cover, and now my FL is starting to growl and sing like I hoped it would. I love me some TI Jazz flats on my Smith 6-stringer, but they just do nothing for my Rick and for me on this particular bass.

Now I just need to tweak the PU poles for the best tone. But playing over the edge of that treble PU, SWEET! Mid growl, where you been?

cassius987 · Post by **cassius987** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:12 am

What gauges (LaBella)?

For the Hi-Gains I recommend dialing the poles all flush, then giving the A and D just a bit of extra height (not as much as they come stock). YMMV.

FretlessOnly · Post by **FretlessOnly** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:45 pm

It's the FS set at 45/65/85/105. Would you recommend that pole set-up for both pick-ups?

cassius987 · Post by **cassius987** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:25 pm

FretlessOnly wrote:Would you recommend that pole set-up for both pick-ups?

Yes, I would.

I was thinking of checking out LaBellas in these gauges (for tensional balance): 43, 56, 77, 105. Based on my calculations (which are extrapolated from some pretty robust tension patterns from other sets of strings) this should be a decently balanced set. The set you have should be pretty good too. What's the tension like?

FretlessOnly · Post by **FretlessOnly** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:36 pm

They play fairly tight, but then I like something that fights back a bit. It reduces fingerboard clack and pick-up pop and allows my left hand to finger more like I'm used to on upright.

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