4004L 4-2-5 further modified

[ianmatth]

This bass was originally the following Jeff Rath 4-2-5 conversion: http://www.3dentourage.com/425/98%20red%204004L5.htm

The string spacing was too close and I hated the color, so I had it painted black, added an Audere Classic 4 preamp, and switched to a Schaller bridge. Just like Jeff said, the Schaller bridge put the B and G strings outside of the range of the bridge pickup, so instead of using the style of steel rails he used: http://www.3dentourage.com/425/c5pbass.htm, it was done a little differently. So far I'm liking the sound, although I'm contemplating switching to a toaster for the neck and a single coil (Sergio made a single coil 5-string Ric-style pickup for Jeff Rath's 4004L 4-2-5: http://www.3dentourage.com/425/93-4004L-5-2.htm) for the bridge.

[VRICKY63]

Nice ! I had toasters on my rathed 4004Cii. Sounded beautiful.

[ianmatth]

Nice ! I had toasters on my rathed 4004Cii. Sounded beautiful.

What did you do to get the toaster to cover the string spacing at the bridge position? Also, were they 7.4k toasters, because there is a thought that you might need something hotter to fully pick up the B string, although the HB1s that come stock on the 4004s seem to pick up the B string no problem and they are around the same impedance.

[VRICKY63]

I think I bought the toasters in 06-07 new from Rickenbacker. My Cii had the narrow epiphone tail piece that Jeff was using back then so no problem with covering the pickup width. The B was not as fat as the HB1s but could still shake the house with proper EQ. I sold the Cii only because my 4003 4-2-5 has a more narrow neck.

[MiroN]

I am curious and interested,
But I have a doubt on the 1st string at the end of the neck.

I need 5 strings!

[ianmatth]

I am curious and interested,
But I have a doubt on the 1st string at the end of the neck.

Do you mean it looks like the G string is off the neck, because I can assure you it's not. In fact, even though the bridge spacing was listed as 2.5", which would come out to 16mm string spacing, I rolled the saddles out a little further, so I have even wider string spacing, and I actually set the distance even between strings rather than from the middle of the string. I play fingerstyle, and a lot of heavy and fast stuff, so 17mm is pretty much the minimum I can deal with. It would be cool if Rickenbacker had a real deal 5-string with 19mm spacing and proper pickups, but right now a 4-2-5 modified 4004L with a Schaller 2.5" bridge is about the best Rickenbacker 5-string there is. I don't know why someone would want a smaller neck for a 5-string because even with the wider neck on the 4004L, the string spacing is closer than any other 5-string I've ever played, especially near the nut.

[MiroN]

I have seen 4004cii/5 with changed pickups (real pickups 5 strings)
Maybe, this is the best solution.
But a 4004cii/5 is difficult to find, and it's and expensive.
I don't understand because Ric. don't make a 5 string.

[VRICKY63]

I am curious and interested,
But I have a doubt on the 1st string at the end of the neck.

Do you mean it looks like the G string is off the neck, because I can assure you it's not. In fact, even though the bridge spacing was listed as 2.5", which would come out to 16mm string spacing, I rolled the saddles out a little further, so I have even wider string spacing, and I actually set the distance even between strings rather than from the middle of the string. I play fingerstyle, and a lot of heavy and fast stuff, so 17mm is pretty much the minimum I can deal with. It would be cool if Rickenbacker had a real deal 5-string with 19mm spacing and proper pickups, but right now a 4-2-5 modified 4004L with a Schaller 2.5" bridge is about the best Rickenbacker 5-string there is. I don't know why someone would want a smaller neck for a 5-string because even with the wider neck on the 4004L, the string spacing is closer than any other 5-string I've ever played, especially near the nut.

I need as narrow a neck as possible for my left wrist limitations. The 4003 4-2-5 is perfect for me.

[ianmatth]

I can see where you're coming from because my left hand does seem to wear out faster when I play a typical 5-string with 1 7/8" spacing at the nut vs a 4-string with 1 1/2" spacing at the nut, but if the strings are too close, it gives me problems. I played 6-string guitar for a long time, and after playing bass for a year I was better than I ever was at the 6-string, as I was often muting strings when I didn't want to. The wider spacing between the strings on the bass really works better for me from that perspective, but I do like thin necks when it comes to 4-strings.

I'm not sure about the spacing on the 5-strings that Rickenbacker actually made, but they always looked to have closer spacing than a typical 5-string. Jeff Rath has dealt with enough Ric 5-strings, and he seems to like his 4004s with the Schaller bridge. I was talking to him last night and he is actually using a Jazz Bass pickup as the bridge pickup on his 4004L 4-2-5 with the Audere preamp right now. He has a custom hi-gain-style pickup from Sergio as the bridge pickup on his other 4004 4-2-5 along with an HB2 from a 3001 for the neck pickup. I'm looking to get a similar pickup in the 7-8k range to match with a toaster pickup for the neck so my 4004L 4-2-5 will sound like a 5-string version of my 4003.

[ianmatth]

I have seen 4004cii/5 with changed pickups (real pickups 5 strings)
Maybe, this is the best solution.
But a 4004cii/5 is difficult to find, and it's and expensive.
I don't understand because Ric. don't make a 5 string.

I was looking at the specs on the 4004cii/5 on the Rickenbacker website, and it is actually wider at the nut than a lot of 5 strings. It also looks like it has a Hipshot A-style kind of bridge, so I would assume it has good string spacing. With the proper pickups, it could be the ultimate Rickenbacker 5-string, but it is difficult to find and thus probably expensive. I think my 4004L 4-2-5 is a good in between where the string spacing is wide enough, but the neck is easier on the left hand than a typical 5-string. Interestingly enough I had some experience with that this week. I just joined a band and the first night of rehearsal I was using my 4003, the 2nd night I tried using my Fernandes Gravity 5 Deluxe because it's louder. The 4003 was definitely easier on my left hand, although it might have also had to due with the Rickenbacker having the 33.25" scale instead of a typical 34" scale like the Fernandes. I wouldn't think it made such a difference, but when I played an F minor form, I feel like I had to reach more on the 34" scale.

[MiroN]

I must find a solution

[ianmatth]

Looks like Sergio just finished the custom pickups, and I have Garry Goodman making a custom .175 string as I'm going to see if I can string it .175, .135, .105, .85, .65 and tune it E0, A0, D1, G1, C2. I'm going to do the same thing with my Fernandes Garvity 5 Deluxe and see which one is more capable of handling the 20.6 Hz E0.

[jps]

What amp system are you using that is capable of going that low?

[ianmatth]

Basson B410B cabinet. It's rated down to 28 Hz, but it can definitely handle way lower than that. Garry Goodman, who is the foremost expert on sub-contra bass (his string site is www.octave4plus.com) had Basson build him a special cabinet that was touted to do a 17 Hz low C#, they even sold it for a while as the B510B, but discontinued it due to lack of interest. Jauqo III-X, who basically developed the low C# tuning had one as well. I was interested in a sub-contra bass, so I spoke to Jauqo and Garry. Jauqo referred me to David Minnieweather to build the bass. 14 months after taking on my project, David killed himself, as thus I was out $3000+ on that. In the meantime I was looking for a cabinet and amp. I sent Basson an E-mail and Victor Basson called me out of the blue. Victor said the B410B could handle the same lows as the B510B, but it wouldn't handle the range that the B510B did (Garry has a 13-string bass that does the full range on a Bossendorfer Imperial Grand Piano, so he needs clarity through a wide range of frequencies). He also said playing at 15 Hz could potentially melt the coil (probably would only happen at full volume.) I ended up getting an Ampeg SVT4Pro to drive it as the B410B is rated at 1000W at 8 ohms and needs a minimum of 750W at 8 ohms, the SVT4Pro does 900W at 8 ohms mono-bridged.

Garry said Basson finally finished their bass head they've been working on for years, so I will look into that as soon as it's available. I really want to sell the Ampeg, and before I heard that Basson's new head was finally completed, I was thinking about downgrading to a Crown power amp because the Ampeg has a whole bunch of options that I don't really need. I also have a 175W PJB Flightcase. Garry said the PJB Suitcase can handle 15 Hz, so I assume the Flightcase can do the same. One last note about the Basson. I downloaded the 12.98 Hz G#00 file from Garry's site: http://garrygoodman.com/G Sharp Sequence/G sharp sequence.wav and played it through my laptop on the Basson. It could seemingly handle it perfectly, although no one could really hear the G#00, we could definitely feel it. One guy said it felt like something was crawling in his ear. The 15.44 Hz B00 sounds like a cannon: http://garrygoodman.com/BassNote .wav

[ianmatth]

Well, the 4004L 4-2-5 has turned out to be quite an albatross...for both me and my luthier. He hooked up my Audere preamp with the low-Z mode and the pickups Sergio made, but it really doesn't sound right for sub-contra. My Fernandes Gravity 5 deluxe sounds better for sub-contra, but still not ideal, I don't think those EMG active pickups can really handle 20.6 Hz properly either. The toaster-style pickup Sergio made was particularly awesome, a bit under 7k, but plenty loud. The high-gain style pickup he made was about 5k and was too quiet in comparison. He even made an extra magnet to try to jack it up, but it didn't quite do the trick as the toaster-style pickup is still much louder. Regardless, I've decided the bass is just not going to cut it as far as sub-contra is concerned and am now looking to cut my losses (to the tune of less than 50% of my total investment to date, as this was such a GAS purchase in the first place). A friend even recommended parting it out as it seems people are getting more money that way today. Anyway, if anyone is interested in a 1998 4004L body with a maple fretboard that is currently set up to a 5-string bass with 17mm spacing, let me know. It actually has an Audere preamp built in right now (beautiful job by my luthier), but if you don't care or I'm not going to get enough money, I can alway put the original pots back in and sell the Audere on talkbass and probably get $125 for it or use it in another bass. I also have the HB pickups I took out of it as well. This bass was awesome before as a typical 5-string, and could do 28Hz drop A no problem even before the Audere and the pickups from Sergio. For those who are looking for a low-B 5-string Ric with good spacing, this is it. I never use low-B tuning so it isn't for me, and since it won't do EADGC sub-contra the way I want, I don't need it, so I'm letting all the Rickresource members have a crack at it before I try to list on on talkbass. I'm even willing to take trades.