Horse Shoes from Turner

[ken_j]

... (After all Harley Davidson tried unsuccessfully to trademark the "sound" of a Harley - which probably would have made them be able to claim license fees from anyone making a big v-twin.) ...

Not to get off topic but the sound of a Harley has to do with the degrees between the banks of cylinders and that there is a single crank pin. These two reasons are why a Harley is not an even firing engine.

[BAD RONBO, KiLLeR DWaRfS]

maybe turner can use them as it's on a guitar and not an aftermarket part, so therefore not available to the general public as a separate piece. i doubt someone will buy a turner guitar and rip the pickup out of it for a rick. the horseshoes would work for bass as long as the coil you supplied had a low profile. that guitar coil is pretty tall.

[jingle_jangle]

Do you know a case where they went to court about the horseshoe and won?

Nope. I don't follow their court cases, but was told by John Hall that they were 100% successful in defending their trademarks against all infringement.

[nbfanca]

Well if you think about it, the only thing they can defend is the look of the horseshoe. And since other made horseshoe pickups (Ohahu for example) that pretty much limits them to defending the string changing gap in the top. Change the dimensions slightly and its clearly public domain (just like people beat the Les Paul Tradmark by shortening the lower horn).

I confess I've never seen a Ric Bass with a horseshoe. How are they together? The "shoes" in the old lapsteel horseshoes were a solid piece. Yet I've seen picturs of McCartneys bass with the shoes removed. Do the tops come off or did Macca replace the entire pickup?

[rickfan63]

I'm not talking about RIC letting someone rip them off. I'm just saying it's seems odd to me why they would not license out the HS to be made by another quality US luthier(from all I've heard Lollar's work was excellent) when it's a product they don't even offer as a aftermarket product. RIC could have final say on the QC. Not do it a a mass produced product mind you, but as, limited production part. Since the 4001C64/S are now discontinued, no RIC bass in production offers the HS as standard equipment. So if something ever goes wrong with a HS on a V63 or C64 that's out of warranty, and would ever need replacing. Or if someone with a 4001/3 wanted to put a HS in it, there is no recourse that I'm aware of. Outside of taking one off another instrument. I doubt that the first scenerio would happen, but the second might. I'm just saying what if. It would be until RIC was ready to offer it themselves. But I know that is never, ever, going to happen though. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest here folks. It's just an alternative opinion.

I don't think it would be a bad idea though.

I did not realize that Fender copyrighted it's headstock design. I suppose Gibson has too. If that is is the case, then little needs to be done to change a Fender/Gibson style headstock to avoid the lawyers wrath. Unless either dosen't enforce their trademark like RIC does. Otherwise, some well known makers and overseas makes would be in trouble because those head and body designs are very clearly taken from Fender and Gibson. Oh well, to each company their own.

[jingle_jangle]

Well if you think about it, the only thing they can defend is the look of the horseshoe. And since other made horseshoe pickups (Ohahu for example) that pretty much limits them to defending the string changing gap in the top. Change the dimensions slightly and its clearly public domain (just like people beat the Les Paul Tradmark by shortening the lower horn).

I confess I've never seen a Ric Bass with a horseshoe. How are they together? The "shoes" in the old lapsteel horseshoes were a solid piece. Yet I've seen picturs of McCartneys bass with the shoes removed. Do the tops come off or did Macca replace the entire pickup?

I think you're making some suppositions here that may be ill-informed. I admit that, unless either of us is an IP lawyer, neither is actually capable of affecting the real legal debate one way or the other.

The newer HSs from RIC can be removed by loosening screws on the bottom that secure the shoes to the bobbin. The horseshoes on the new ones are not magnetized. The horseshoes don't have to be, as they are cosmetic in this case.

[jingle_jangle]

I'm not talking about RIC letting someone rip them off. I'm just saying it's seems odd to me why they would not license out the HS to be made by another quality US luthier(from all I've heard Lollar's work was excellent) when it's a product they don't even offer as a aftermarket product. RIC could have final say on the QC. Not do it a a mass produced product mind you, but as, limited production part. Since the 4001C64/S are now discontinued, no RIC bass in production offers the HS as standard equipment. So if something ever goes wrong with a HS on a V63 or C64 that's out of warranty, and would ever need replacing. Or if someone with a 4001/3 wanted to put a HS in it, there is no recourse that I'm aware of. Outside of taking one off another instrument. I doubt that the first scenerio would happen, but the second might. I'm just saying what if. It would be until RIC was ready to offer it themselves. But I know that is never, ever, going to happen though. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest here folks. It's just an alternative opinion.

I don't think it would be a bad idea though.

Lots of folks have ideas that they think would be great, when it comes to things that they're passionate about. Sometimes there seems to be no end to "better ideas" and "things that are just common sense".

Just remember that the family members who own and operate RIC have their own way of doing things, which of course, is their prerogative.

I've seen a Lollar HS and played one, too. Mighty thin-sounding, and nowhere near the bulletproof look and feel of a Rick HS, despite the fact of the RIC HS being a cosmetic item.

[rickaddict]

I confess I've never seen a Ric Bass with a horseshoe. How are they together? The "shoes" in the old lapsteel horseshoes were a solid piece. Yet I've seen picturs of McCartneys bass with the shoes removed. Do the tops come off or did Macca replace the entire pickup?

The original horseshoes were magnetized. If removed, the pickup would no longer work. The RI horseshoes have magnetized alnico slugs and non-magnetized (cosmetic only) horseshoes. So on the RI horseshoe pickup, the 'shoes can be removed and the pickup will still work.

Regarding McCartney's bass...The horseshoe magnets became too weak in the 70's and the pickup was replaced with a hi-gain at the RIC factory.

[ken_j]

...I've seen a Lollar HS and played one, too. Mighty thin-sounding, and nowhere near the bulletproof look and feel of a Rick HS, despite the fact of the RIC HS being a cosmetic item.

My first new Rick, a '68 4000, had a horse shoe from the factory. It was exactly as you descibe the Lollar. In fact it had low gain right out of the box. Perhaps Lollar made a copy that was very close in performance.

[rickfan63]

I'm not talking about RIC letting someone rip them off. I'm just saying it's seems odd to me why they would not license out the HS to be made by another quality US luthier(from all I've heard Lollar's work was excellent) when it's a product they don't even offer as a aftermarket product. RIC could have final say on the QC. Not do it a a mass produced product mind you, but as, limited production part. Since the 4001C64/S are now discontinued, no RIC bass in production offers the HS as standard equipment. So if something ever goes wrong with a HS on a V63 or C64 that's out of warranty, and would ever need replacing. Or if someone with a 4001/3 wanted to put a HS in it, there is no recourse that I'm aware of. Outside of taking one off another instrument. I doubt that the first scenerio would happen, but the second might. I'm just saying what if. It would be until RIC was ready to offer it themselves. But I know that is never, ever, going to happen though. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest here folks. It's just an alternative opinion.

I don't think it would be a bad idea though.

Lots of folks have ideas that they think would be great, when it comes to things that they're passionate about. Sometimes there seems to be no end to "better ideas" and "things that are just common sense".

Just remember that the family members who own and operate RIC have their own way of doing things, which of course, is their prerogative.

I've seen a Lollar HS and played one, too. Mighty thin-sounding, and nowhere near the bulletproof look and feel of a Rick HS, despite the fact of the RIC HS being a cosmetic item.

Point well taken Paul. However there should always be "better ideas" coming or else there is never any innovation, regardless of what business or industry we are talking about. Not all of them make it past the discussion or drawing board phase though I know. And some don't pass the test of time(ie: the 1980's Steinberger all-graphite bass). Big hoopla over that one back then, now you don't ever see them. Except at Ed Romans

And you are absolutely right in that the folks at RIC have the right to run their business in any manner they choose and I will always support their right to do that. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the decisions that they make.

Wasn't the original HS rather thin sounding too. I'm asking since I've never had the pleasure to play an original. I've only played the RI, which on the V63 is pretty hot, not as much on the C64.

[lucky]

Maybe another answer would be if Rickenbacker could make the present treble pickup cover, look more like the HS covers. As a lot of us like the look of the HS,you could have that & the sound of the Hi gain. This would be great all round those of us who wanted the look would get what we wanted, and if all 4003's had this look then would it not further enhance Ric's hold of the HS pickup patent.

[jps]

Wasn't the original HS rather thin sounding too. I'm asking since I've never had the pleasure to play an original. I've only played the RI, which on the V63 is pretty hot, not as much on the C64.

The '60s magnetic HS pickup I have on my 4003 is quite strong and full sounding.

[sloop_john_b]

The '60s magnetic HS pickup I have on my 4003 is quite strong and full sounding.

Cap in or out?

[BAD RONBO, KiLLeR DWaRfS]

rickfan63 said...
Point well taken Paul. However there should always be "better ideas" coming or else there is never any innovation, regardless of what business or industry we are talking about. Not all of them make it past the discussion or drawing board phase though I know. And some don't pass the test of time(ie: the 1980's Steinberger all-graphite bass). Big hoopla over that one back then, now you don't ever see them. Except at Ed Romans .

(or my steinberger under the rear wheels of our 5 ton ! )

i believe if RIC cut a royalty deal with someone capable of making horseshoe pickups that would stand up electrically and mechanically and selling them thru the RIC boutique, i see no reason not to go ahead. we get our horseshoes, RIC gets a royalty, the manufacturer,(loller or turner) gets paid for making them , and we stop bitchin' ! seems win=win.

[marc61]

I'd just like to see Ric start making the reissue pickup again. It's a fine sounding pickup. How many of us would buy them right now at $300?(I raise my hand). That's double what they used to cost, but less than half of what they're going for.