Lined Fretless Bass Guitars

[rickenbrother]

Maybe it should come with a couple of kneeling nubile maidens and you could rest it their shoulders as you play.

Janey would appreciate that!

Wow, I'm an innovator!

Are you trying to make the rest of us look good or bad?

[hieronymous]

I wrote a post about my two unlined fretlesses and my trials and tribulations with my first fretless, a Fender Japan Jazz Bass that only had side markers in the same place as a fretless. But my pictures were too big, so I gave up and decided just to post a couple of videos of my doubleneck Alembic:

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Not the greatest sound, just the mic in the camera, but you get the idea - sounds much better on good speakers!

I spend a lot of time in the video looking at the neck - the bass has small dots where each fret would be.

Maybe someday I will be able to get a fretless 4001...

[jps]

I'd bet that Tony would buy you one in trade for the DN Alembic.

[FretlessOnly]

I find that if I think about putting my fingers just a bit forward of what feels right, it's just about perfect.

This depends on how you line up your fingers and the side dots, the force exerted by your fingering hand, the shape of your fingertips, and where you are on the neck.

Assuming a right-handed player, the string is stopped (i.e., "fretted") not by the center of your your left hand fingertips, but by a point slightly further from the left thumb (i.e., toward the body of the bass). Down in the low positions, the amount of error incurred by fingering dead-center of the fingertip is quite small, but as you go up the fingerboard, the notes must be fingered somewhat below where one might think of fingering them (I suppose that depends on how one thinks about it!), so that the portion of the finger that actually determines the string length is in the proper spot.

The degree to which this is true is a function of fingertip shape and the amount of pressure used to finger a note (more pressure = the "stopping" point is further from the left thumb than if less pressure is used - but not by much). Of course, all of this is confounded by parallax error (the apparent lining up of something when viewed from an angle), which decreases as you go up the neck. Depending on the angle of your bass relative to the floor and the angle at which you view it, there may be a sweet spot whereby the decrease in parallax error is nearly evenly offset by the need to finger slightly below the dot as you go up the neck. The net result in that case would be that you don't think that you need to finger a note slightly "below" the side dot as you move up, even though you actually do.

cjj: I wonder if the reason you think that you need to finger a note a bit forward (I'm assuming that means "up the neck'?) of where you'd think is because of parallax error. Try holding your headstock much higher off of the floor and looking over your left shoulder a bit at the 5th "fret" which should now be almost completely in line with your eyes. This should remove parallax error in that portion of the fignerboard. Does your perception of where to finger the note change?

Alternatively, hold the neck parallel to the floor, and play at and above the octave, where your straight downward gaze (directly down toward the floor) should lie in this configuration (right around the 12th "fret" I mean). This removes parallax error at the octave. Any differences?

Clear as mud?

[teb]

Isn't that kind of over-thinking the situation? The dots are there as a quick-sight aid, but in my humble opinion, if you have to be worrying about which portion of your finger is pushing at what exact spot or visual distortions due to neck angle, you might do well to do some playing in the dark. You should be hearing whether the note is right or not long before your eyes can figure out what is going on. Some folks have the ears to play fretless and some don't - and it doesn't mean that some are good bass players and the others aren't.

What you're trying to develop is a coordinated effort between your ears and your fingers, with your eyes in a much reduced role as a back-up mode. This is what will eventually allow you to play with the neck at different angles (such as standing at a gig or sitting on a chair in the studio) or to pick up any fretless bass, with any scale length and be able to play it. One interesting exercise is to pick a string that's used a lot, like the A or D, and tune it a little bit flat or sharp. Then put on a recording and play along IN TUNE. Make the adjustments as you play, because you won't have time to think about it much. Situations like this will come up at gigs from time to time and you have to rely on your ears, not the dots on the neck.

This is probably my biggest gripe with lined fingerboards. If you also play fretted instruments, it's more difficult to ignore the lines and to use your ears instead. I have three fretless basses at the moment, with three different scale lengths and another one coming soon. The fretless Hofner is the only one with lines because that's the only way they made them. I find that I have to concentrate on ignoring the lines and remembering that (1) they aren't frets, (2)they don't stop-off the note's intonation like a fret would and (3) they often may not be in tune because of the visual distortions. Despite the obvious "training wheels" references that get tossed around, you still have to play those basses with your ears, not your eyes, or your going to be playing some really sour notes.

[cjj]

I find that if I think about putting my fingers just a bit forward of what feels right, it's just about perfect.

cjj: I wonder if the reason you think that you need to finger a note a bit forward (I'm assuming that means "up the neck'?) of where you'd think is because of parallax error.

Clear as mud?

That's quite a detailed explanation of things. But no, that's not really what I was getting at. What I meant was, since I've been playing fretted basses for so many years, I have a feel for where my fingers need to go for a particular fret. On the fretless, if I just put my finger where it feels right, I'm just slightly flat, probably because the spot I hit is just behind where the fret would be. So, if I just think in terms of hitting the note, but being just a bit further up the neck (where the fret would actually be, I guess), it's generally pretty close.

This is all without even looking at the neck, so there's no parallax involved. Heck, my fretless doesn't even have side dots other than the main ones at 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. so looking really only gives you a relative position for most frets anyway...

[ajish4]

I'd bet that Tony would buy you one in trade for the DN Alembic.

Only if it comes with a forklift!

[FretlessOnly]

Isn't that kind of over-thinking the situation?

I would think that it could be considered over-analyzing the situation, and I should point out that none of what I wrote had anything to do with how I learned fretless. I learned on upright and used my ears. The jump to fretless electric was simple after that.

But, some people learn better when they have more information about the physics of "why?" than do others, so, since I have observed the phenomena I wrote about over time, I thought I'd throw it out there.

[hieronymous]

I'd bet that Tony would buy you one in trade for the DN Alembic.

Only if it comes with a forklift!

Yes, it is a weighty beast...

[cassius987]

You should be hearing whether the note is right or not long before your eyes can figure out what is going on.

Huge-normous +1, and I think John was just fleshing out the details in Chris Kringel's method and other methods though. Some people need to use visual aids before they develop that ear.

Back to the court case of Lined V. Unlined, I'd just like to offer this proof of the fact that people often think their grass is the greener kind, regardless of variety: I was going to have a luthier install a fretless neck on my MIA Jazz, and he said, "Great, we'll get the AllParts lined ebony board." I said "No, no, I'd like the unlined." And the guy looked at me like I was crazy. "I just think it's better looking, and I use my ear anyways." I'd already played fretless for a while at that point and learned the "futility" of watching the lines--you can't groove while you do that IMO. But the luthier refused to order the unlined neck because he said I was being stupid. So he didn't get my business.

If lines are what you want, great, if they aren't then they aren't. I think in the end no matter what instrument you play the best fretless players will learn not to pay much attention to what their fingerboard looks like and will pay more attention to how the thing sounds. After all, you can't read a chart while staring at lines OR dots.

[FretlessOnly]

Who? I was just waxing on about some things I've actually observed recently (after some 18 years playing fretless or upright). cjj's post about playing just above the spot was relative to fretted bass, so even though I misunderstood, it sparked my over-analysis.

[cassius987]

John, Kringel (or is it Kringle?) wrote a Hal-Leonard fretless method book I own and wrote something very much like you did, with pictures to support it. I think a lot of people need that kind of analysis to learn to "trust themselves", it's a placebo effect. "Okay, I KNOW my finger's in the right spot--therefore I can do this!" Enter the confident ear, which leads them the rest of the way.

[ajish4]

If lines are what you want, great, if they aren't then they aren't. I think in the end no matter what instrument you play the best fretless players will learn not to pay much attention to what their fingerboard looks like and will pay more attention to how the thing sounds. After all, you can't read a chart while staring at lines OR dots.

A HUGE +1.

[ajish4]

Yes, it is a weighty beast...

Great pic!

Sigh.....Alembic GAS is SOooooooooooo hard to fight!

[FretlessOnly]

But the luthier refused to order the unlined neck because he said I was being stupid. So he didn't get my business.

That may the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. What's the difference between an obstinant luthier and a 16" pizza?