12 Saddle Bridges

[Folkie]

I've owned my Rickenbacker 330/12 for years and am just noticing some intonation problems on the G-pair. I'm contemplating replacing the original bridge with a 12-saddle one, but am worried that this might be a major job and might affect the way the guitar plays. One person on this forum said they got some rattle from the additional parts when they installed the 12-saddle. Also, there seems to be no consensus on how to space the strings when notching the bridge. If I decide to replace it, I'm going to have my trusted guitar tech do the whole thing. Is it reasonable to space the strings exactly the same distance at the bridge as at the nut? How satisfied are those of you who have made this modification? Will it cure my intonation problems or just make them less glaring?

[jimk]

I have to start out with a disclaimer. This whole 12 saddle vs. 6 saddle bridge discussion mystifies me. I have a stock factory 6 saddle bridge on my 12, and I don't have any intonation problems at all. Having said that, I have used only 2 different brands of strings on it; either the Rickenbacker strings, or currently the Curt Mangan strings from POTR.

Maybe it's pure balderdash, maybe it isn't, but I buy John Hall's whole argument about string quality and intonation with a 6 saddle bridge.

JimK

[paologregorio]

I agree with you Jim. Strings can make a difference, and I think JH makes sense.

[deaconblues]

I thought there was some kind of tradeoff there - less intonation control with the six-saddle bridge versus a loss of sustain or tone in some way with the twelve-saddle.

[Folkie]

Loss of sustain sounds problematic. By the way, I've had good experiences with D'Addario EXL150's (.010 to .046) in the past and that's what my 330/12 is strung with. I just had it set up and restrung about three weeks ago.

[paologregorio]

I thought there was some kind of tradeoff there - less intonation control with the six-saddle bridge versus a loss of sustain or tone in some way with the twelve-saddle.

There is a tradeoff, but it still usually isn't an issue with quality brand of strings. My 381 came with a 12 saddle bridge, so that's what I use, I also use a really light gauge Ernie Ball string set. The six saddle models I've played have usually been strung with Thomastik-Infeld's or Rick strings and sounded great wrt to intonation. The bigger chunk of metal that makes up the saddles on the six saddle bridge is the factor that makes for better sustain.

[Ric-360-12FG]

I do not buy John Halls argument about string quality. I have a 360/12 and I have always used Rickenbacker and TI strings with major intonation problems. Since I installed a 12-saddle bridge the intonation problems are gone. Maybe the problem was the bridge, maybe I have a bad guitar (which would be even worse). I also do not hear any loss of sustain. Probably there really is a loss of sustain but my ears are not good enough to hear the difference.

[xpitt]

oh no, not again ! I keep away from fundamentalistic religious issues
...the only thing I can say about sustain is since I put the 12 saddle bridge on I've been playing my Rick enthusiastically every day with the result of a permanent sustain in my ears...

[steverok]

I've owned my Rickenbacker 330/12 for years and am just noticing some intonation problems on the G-pair. I'm contemplating replacing the original bridge with a 12-saddle one, but am worried that this might be a major job and might affect the way the guitar plays. One person on this forum said they got some rattle from the additional parts when they installed the 12-saddle. Also, there seems to be no consensus on how to space the strings when notching the bridge. If I decide to replace it, I'm going to have my trusted guitar tech do the whole thing. Is it reasonable to space the strings exactly the same distance at the bridge as at the nut? How satisfied are those of you who have made this modification? Will it cure my intonation problems or just make them less glaring?

I have swapped back and forth between a 12-saddle and 6-saddle on mine. I initially thought there was a loss of tone with the 12-saddle, but I've had the 12-saddle in there for a couple of years now, and am very happy with how the guitar sounds. My 12-saddle bridge, however, was worked on by a master tech, who machined the saddles, and installed better springs, so that they would move freely when you adjusted it. You may notice that it's very difficult to shorten the string lengths with these Ric bridges, and will be doubly annoying with 12 saddles. Regarding spacing, I would think they should be spaced farther than they are at the nut, but not by alot. Why not mimick the spacing you have now, if you are happy with that ? Also, you can keep your 6-saddle bridge, until you get the 12-saddle where you need it to be. In my experience, the 12-saddle bridge will cure your intonation issues, but they definitely need to be worked on, to get them up to snuff, in my opinion.

[teb]

My 340/12 has a six-saddle bridge and the tone and intonation are both excellent. My 370/12WB came with a six-saddle and had serious intonation problems that I could not cure by adjusting the saddle positions or the baseplate position. I had Dr. Arnquist install a twelve-saddle bridge and it cured the problem. If you think you might need one and have exhausted the other possibilities, I wouldn't hesitate to switch. I don't buy into the loss of tone stuff at all, and I have all the sustain I'd ever want. Granted, I'm mostly a bass player and have never actually played a Rickenbacker twelve on stage, but when I record it, it sounds awfully good to me and I don't feel like I'm missing anything in either the tone or sustain categories. I also have pretty serious tinitus, so the ringing never stops around here . You can hear the 12-saddle 370 here and judge for yourself:
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/M ... amples.mp3

[xpitt]

...... but when I record it, it sounds awfully good to me ...... You can hear the 12-saddle 370 here and judge for yourself:
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/M ... amples.mp3

...it really does sound awfully good, Todd ! but besides that : gorgeous vocals, thanks for sharing !

[Folkie]

Todd,

Wow, that's a really beautiful 12-string sound! Was that recorded in an actual studio or on a digital recorder? What compressor do you use and did you record directly into the board? How many overdubs did you do on the Ricky? Are you playing with a flat pick and metal fingerpicks like McGuinn on his DVD?

Robert

[jdogric12]

To OP: if you are using a plain g, toss it in the trash and get a .020w. Problem solved on your end.

[Folkie]

I'm not sure whether my D'Addario set has a wound G. What does a wound G do for intonation?

[teb]

Robert, my 370/12 has neck and middle toasters and a bridge high-gain. The neck and bridge, fifth knob and regular jack are wired just like a 360. The middle pickup is wired with a volume control only, and sent to the other jack (usually used if I want to mix some non-compressed sound into the mix). Some of that stuff was recorded dual mono using two cords and two channels. Other parts were done just with the 360-style neck/bridge mono output. Strings are TI Jazz Flats, the compressor is a Janglebox. The signals are usually run through my Traynor YBA200 tube bass amp head for EQ and then into a Korg D1200 MkII laptop 12-track recorder. If I'm running dual mono, I sometimes sandwich a mic between my two Vox Pathfinder mini-stacks and run one cord into each one and then run the mic into the Korg. It's really one of those scenarios where I play around with the different possible combinations and see what I like best on a particular tune, but the most frequent (and easiest to adjust) is probably the 360-style mono feed into the JangleBox, through the bass head and into the recorder. They're all demos, recorded in my office when I'm supposed to be working.

The first clip has two tracks of 12-string, basically playing the same thing, but not being overly careful to duplicate the same part, so that it gives a fuller sound and some spread by panning them. Flat-picked with a really thin (.46 mm) Dunlop nylon pick.

The second clip starts with the same dual-twelve mode and then drops one for the instrumental, where it's replaced with a track using a thumb pick and fingerpicks and moving about as fast as these old bass player fingers can go. The dual twelves have a pretty full sound and I usually back it up with a fairly sparse, simple strum pattern on an acoustic six-string with the tone set pretty bright and thin (mid-range on the acoustic just seems to add mud to the mix). By itself, the acoustic six has a tone similar to what you would hear on an old Eagles hit, like "Tequilla Sunrise". It fits well with the twelve and adds some shimmery texture without creating mud. Drums are all done by tapping the keys on an old Alesis synthesizer. Harmonies are done with a Voicetone Harmony G (in reality, I can't sing harmony worth a damn).

The third clip has a typical, flat-picked twelve track that comes in over the top of a bare-handed fingerpicking/frailing/thumb-tapping sort of track using just the neck pickup on the 370/12.