12 Saddle Bridges

[jdogric12]

For some reason a wound G just works and plain G's are too easily bent by the fretting hand, even with those super low rick frets.

[teb]

I found when I was first switching over to the TI Jazz Flats, ordering individual strings and playing with different gauges to see what I liked, that if I went too light on the primary strings (especially the low E and A) that I was having intonation problems. I eventually figured out that when I clamped down hard on them, especially during fast runs or chord changes, I was bending them - but not off to one side as in a normal bend. I was bending them straight down over the frets. Played resonably lightly, or when tuning up, they sounded nicely in tune. Then a few minutes later diring a song, there would be spots where they were going sharp (the lowest G on a G chord, the lowest C on a C chord, the low F when you catch it with your thimb, etc.) and it was driving me nuts. Once I figured out what was going on, I boosted the guages of those strings slightly and the problem was solved.

I suppose one easy experiment if you seem to be having intonation problems that are hard to explain, would be to compare the pitch when you fret the strings lightly, vs. when you really clamp straight down on them. It's tough to play along always trying to be sure to exert the same amount of finger pressure, so if you're getting some pitch variation at different pressures, you might want to try slightly heavier strings.

[xpitt]

I found when I was first switching over to the TI Jazz Flats, ordering individual strings and playing with different gauges to see what I liked, that if I went too light on the primary strings (especially the low E and A) that I was having intonation problems. I eventually figured out that when I clamped down hard on them, especially during fast runs or chord changes, I was bending them - but not off to one side as in a normal bend. I was bending them straight down over the frets. Played resonably lightly, or when tuning up, they sounded nicely in tune. Then a few minutes later diring a song, there would be spots where they were going sharp (the lowest G on a G chord, the lowest C on a C chord, the low F when you catch it with your thimb, etc.) and it was driving me nuts. Once I figured out what was going on, I boosted the guages of those strings slightly and the problem was solved.

I suppose one easy experiment if you seem to be having intonation problems that are hard to explain, would be to compare the pitch when you fret the strings lightly, vs. when you really clamp straight down on them. It's tough to play along always trying to be sure to exert the same amount of finger pressure, so if you're getting some pitch variation at different pressures, you might want to try slightly heavier strings.

Todd, thanks for this one; I just restrung my 380 L with a collected set of TI flats with lighter gauges on the lows and I had the same issue, it was just too crazy. I will go back to 10/42.

[gibsonlp]

My 366/12 had horrible intonation, the low E string was completely off and way too high compared to the rest, I had problems with different strings as well but the low E was the worst.
I moved to a 12 saddle bridge (kept the original in the case, of course) and I had to take the base plate all the way back, remove the spring off the low E saddle to allow it to travel 2 more mm back and finally my guitar was perfectly in tune, the space between the low E and it's octave companion is pretty high (didn't measure it but I guess it's over 0.5cm)
I understand that there shouldn't be a difference between two strings tuned to the same note in different octaves but on my guitar there is and 12 saddles bridge was my only solution.
I use Rickenbacker strings.

[Folkie]

Thanks, Todd! It turns out that what I thought were intonation problems were in fact due to my inadvertently bending the G-pair during solos. So I've been trying to exert less pressure on the strings and to avoid playing with my fingertips. I have my 330/12 strung with a standard D'Addario EXL150 set which has a .017 and a .008 on the G pair. I assume since the set is nickel wound that I have a wound G. If I moved up to a heavier gauge, what would you recommend?

[steverok]

My 366/12 had horrible intonation, the low E string was completely off and way too high compared to the rest, I had problems with different strings as well but the low E was the worst.
I moved to a 12 saddle bridge (kept the original in the case, of course) and I had to take the base plate all the way back, remove the spring off the low E saddle to allow it to travel 2 more mm back and finally my guitar was perfectly in tune, the space between the low E and it's octave companion is pretty high (didn't measure it but I guess it's over 0.5cm)
I understand that there shouldn't be a difference between two strings tuned to the same note in different octaves but on my guitar there is and 12 saddles bridge was my only solution.
I use Rickenbacker strings.

I once tried removing all the springs from my 6-saddle bridge, and the tone was completely zapped. Did you experience a loss in tone when you removed the spring ?

[gibsonlp]

I don't think so, I actually never bothered checking

However - my saddle goes all the way back so it is pretty tight on the bridge itself, I think it should be okay... No?

[whojamfan]

Has anybody tried these Ultratone 12 string replacement bridges with the delrin saddles? Looks pretty solid.
http://www.edroman.com/parts/ric_bridges.htmdges

[teb]

I never thought the springs did much (other than rattle if you don't stretch them enough). If I have one that's getting a bit over-compressed by the saddle position, I just stick it in front of the saddle, instead of behind it. If nothing else, it keeps it with the guitar so that it doesn't get lost.

Robert, I haven't experimented much with strings on my twelves. I tried Pyramids and hated them. I like the factory strings from Rickenbacker if I want a bit more twang, but generally stick with the TI flats (10/10 13/13/ 20/10 25/13/ 34/20 44/25) which seem to give me pretty much everything I want out of my twelves (lower tension, easy playability and a lot of chime). They also last a long time. I play my 370/12 five times as much as any other guitar I own and almost every day. I usually get better than a year out of a set. The wound primary strings on the TI sets have a fairly dull tone from day #1 and seem to stay that way, so they don't really have much twang to lose as they age. A side effect from this is that it really brings out the sound of the octave strings in the mix - and that seems to be what makes much of the jangle sound that I want. I use a very light touch and a very thin pick (haven't broken a string on a twelve in at least five years) and I wouldn't be surprised if I could get a couple years out of a set without the tone changing noticably.

I think it's all a matter of what sound you're looking for. The factory compressed rounds have a livelier feel and that new-string twang is part of their sound. I assume most other rounds would be fairly similar and as they age and lose some of that twang, the sound would change. Personally, I hate changing strings, so if I can get the sound I want out of strings that start pretty dead and stay that way, I'm all set.

[Folkie]

Todd,

Thanks for all the expert advice on strings. I've never tried a flatwound set on my 330/12, but everyone on this forum seems to recommend them. I'm accustomed to a D'Addario EXL 150 .010-.046 nickel wound set. Like you, I despise changing strings, and I find that a quality set can last years with only minor wear and minimal loss of tone. I almost never break strings, but since I've started using metal fingerpicks I find the high strings going out of tune more and wouldn't be surprised if I snapped one. My D'Addario set has a plain .017 on the G-pair, so I'm considering trying a wound .018 and if that doesn't work out, probably a wound .020. If it weren't for your post, I might have jumped precipitously into a major modification when in fact there's a much simpler solution.
Thank you again.

Robert

[gibsonlp]

Todd - your low E string goes back quite a lot, it seems like a common problem.

[teb]

Yes it is. In addition, when he set it up, Dr. Arnquist started by moving the entire bridge assembly back about 3/16" using a jig that determines the space between the end of the neck and the bridge plate. It's set so that the space between the neck's end and the "tray" part of the bridge that holds the saddles is about 144 mm. I assume this was done in order to allow for the anticipated spread of the saddles. Then it was strobe intonated to a "sweetened" tuning. I don't know how much, or what, variation there is between straight strobe intonation and his sweetened intonation, but when it came back, the guitar suddenly played in tune extremely well. I originally had him set it up for RIC compressed strings. When I switched to TI flats, I played a bit more with the low E saddle position and loosened the truss rods about 1/4 turn and it was good to go.

When I set up my 330/12, I located the bridge in a similar spot and sort of split the differences between primary and octave saddle positions with its six-saddle bridge. I haven't strobed it and just intonated it by ear, but it seems to play pretty nicely in tune. So I can't really make a case for everybody jumping on the 12-saddle bandwagon, but if the other possibilities that might be causing intonation problems have been addressed, it may be the next logical step. As far as I can tell, the other factors, like tone and sustain, don't seem to change much. I get the feeling that the particular individual pieces of wood that make up your guitar may have a lot more to do with those things than the bridge type.

[Folkie]

Well, I just replaced the plain .017 on my G-pair with a wound .020. I do find that I'm bending the G-pair less during solos and that the pitch is more consistent. Also, there's less buzz from the G-strings striking one another when I fret them. At some point I may want to increase the gauges of the other strings. (I have the guitar set up with a standard D'Addario XL150 .010-.046 set). Thank you Todd and JDog for the much-needed advice!

[beatlefreak]

If you've owned the guitar for years, and are just now having intonation problems, it's not logical that you need to go through the hassle and expense of changing to a 12 saddle bridge. New strings and a setup will do wonders towards eliminating the intonation problem on the one pair. And, as Jdog says, try a wound G.