REMOVING a POLY-SUPERMAN finish .....HELP!

tom · Post by **tom** » Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:41 am

This is a little off the subject of Rickenbackers...but here goes,
I just bought a new korean made Epiphone Riviera with a headstock/neck boo boo...
I reglued the neck back together and it seems stable.....
my question is this:
I want to take the finish off and do it in lacquer, but I dont look forward to taking off this plastic coated superman finish.....
I have stripped many guitars but I hate the idea of trying to get this stuff off....I tried the Savogran paste stripper and the finish laugh at me... all it did was dull the area I patch tested...I noticed that the finish is a 3 or 4 step finish when I sanded on the neck, it appears that theres a top coat that looks almost like the whole guitar is dipped in a vat of plastic, I was thinking that I might could strip off that first layer (oh boy!!) and then use a stripper. what do you think?
got any ideas or maybe a different stripper to use? any suggestions other than sanding and sanding and sanding? I would rather just leave it alone than do that...how bout a blow torch? (just joking).
THANKS for the help...

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:19 pm

Yes this stuff is what is known as ...The Iron Clad finish.
To remove it you need...

a variable temperature heat gun.

And you need to not heat it as hot as possible !

warming epoxy finishes will 'pop' them from what ever they are stuck to.Epoxy/polyester resins have (and this is compared to most finishes) a tremendous cohesion factor and a poor ADHESION !

This is where you get heat to help .

You MUST be careful to not burn the wood or melt the binding.

All hardware should be removed and you will need excellent ventilation .I also recommend that you buy a spray mask,the fumes are nasty.

tom · Post by **tom** » Sun Apr 22, 2001 5:53 pm

Mark...
Im scared (just kidding)
I've never done it that way...
Does it melt off or come off rubbery, do I peel it off?
Can I pick up a heat gun from Lowes or Home depot or Ace hardware? or do they sell them at auto body paint supply shops?

So that I dont melt the binding off, how hot should it be or what temp setting should I use ?
thanks for the help....

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 6:47 am

I softens it and then you must be careful in using a putty knife to scrape it off.It is hot!
I get it to pop ,then start at it with a putty knife .About a 1&1/2" blade.

The resin does not get rubbery ,it does come off in sheets.Don't over heat the finish as it will scorch the wood and if it is plywood....it will not come out .
I strip many types of guitars this way .It does not melt the colorant into the wood pores and gives you the opportunity to shoot a different color afterwards ...at least something lighter ,if you want.

In the case of a fireglo,it does not leave any red in the pores.BUT!!! if you really heat it up too much you can get some color pushed in.This is a technique learned and not taught.THe science is simple ...the art is another thing.

Binding is plastic and the heat will distort or melt the material .Stay away from it .The resin will transfer heat so you won't need to use a gun on top of it .

I use a gun that I bought years ago from a carpet supply house .They sell the tapes ..etc.

You can use a gun from electronic supply houses,it just needs at least two settings.A hair dryer will NOT do it .Propane torches are too much ,and do not place the guitar into a pizza oven ....WAY TOO HOT!!!

And stay away from jet engine heat...hard to control.

tom · Post by **tom** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 7:20 am

thanks...
I have never messed with a heat gun so I'll start in the middle away from the bindings and see what happens...I'll let you know if I was successful or if I had a melt down ........
My guess is to start with the lowest setting on the gun 500-700.....I have heard of hardcore (nuts) luthiers using a blow torch to get the 70s Fender finishes off, did fender use the same kinda finish as these 90s korean made Epiphones......
If this goes fairly easy for me on the Riviera, I might entertain the idea of doing my korean Epi Casino....i just hate the feel of Poly, real plasticy, cheap feeling and on a solid body its not to big a deal, but on these hollow bodies it kills the sound....
thanks for the help....

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:43 am

The removal of the base coat on 1970's Fender's is an amateur thing ....they don't have a full working knowledge of finishing .In the early 1980's I did the same ....never with a torch...again amateur.

If you are doing this to get the Lennon look ,I understand it .If you are doing it to gain better tone....there are other possibilities.

You have a plywood guitar that is laminated with resin to begin with .It was NOT made the way the USA made ES-335 /330/345/355 bodies were made.

Refinishing it will give you a different paint job .It will be thinner,but tone...we could debate this.

I know that tone Hounds like Eric Johnson claim to hear the difference between an Everready and Duracell 9Volt battery....but the Korean made guitars are a different animal.

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:46 am

Now I do want to say one thing more ...I do understand that the look of the Korean guitars is "WRONG"....so I don't want to say DON'T do this .

Have you changed all the non Gibson hardware and pickups yet?
THAT does make a big tone difference.

tom · Post by **tom** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 7:01 pm

I mostly hate the feel of the poly finishes, they feel cheap and plasticy....
plus my days of paying 1500.00 for a 1965 vintage guitar Im going to gig are over, i just dont think a real 2 PU Epiphone Casino is worth 2500.00, I have owned 4 of them back when you could afford one....
i mostly bought the Casino korean to sit at the house with I cant use a Casino at a gig at the volumes my band plays at, it wines and howels too much...thats why i bought the Riviera its like the 335....
Im probably not going to go to the trouble of striping the Casino unless its not too hard for me on the Riviera....Im thinking I will change the PUs out on the Casino, im ok with the rest of the hardware.....I will try to just remove the finish from the neck i fixed on the Riviera and see how that goes and if its not too hard I might remove the rest.
I understand where your coming from on trying to get these korean guitars to be USA guitars I know that isnt going to happen, but Im pretty sure that the USA 330/335 were plywood...Im sure the korean guitars are made cheaper and the neck to body joint is different...
thanks for the help....

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 8:06 pm

Yes the USA guitars were made of laminated birch and sometimes maple.

I have no idea what type of Borneo jungle wood the Korean version is .

Ok so we now understand each other ,I think that this is what I would begin with before stripping off the finish.

1- try 2/0 steel wool on the back of the neck to remove the slick snot feel of the resin.
If that does not do it ,then ...

2- try sanding the finish with 150,then 220 and go with that for a while.The 150 will cut thru thr color and get to the base coat .This is a different material .The upper coats of clear and color are extremely thin and you will hit a diffeent type of resin after going through those.

The Koreans and Japanese finish/paint their guitars in a diferent manner than the American/Canadian makers.

Try this then lets talk more .I'm happy to give you assistance.

And ,yes...I too think that the new prices are totally out of line .It is similar to what Nike has done with shoes.

tom · Post by **tom** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:30 pm

thanks for the help...

martinh · Post by **martinh** » Sat Apr 28, 2001 4:31 pm

Tom:
One minor word of warning. The heat gun is absoulutely the best way to get off that "liquid plastic" gloss, but Mark is not exagerating when he says it "pops". I was removing a similar finish from an EKO 12-string when a hot piece of plastic popped up from the finish. I had just pushed my goggles up, and got it smack in the middle of my right eye. No permanent harm done thank god, but very painful. Wear goggles at all times.

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Sat Apr 28, 2001 9:35 pm

I wear baseball batting gloves when I do this 'stripping' job.They have little plastic cup like devices on the palm and I find them protective and allow easy use of tools .
I too wear a facial shield ...sor of a welder looking face mask of clear poly carbonate.I like it better than the safety glasses.

Yes the hot stuff can fly !!!