Rick Questions

[cassius987]

Rics have necks that are in-between Jazz and Precision Basses in terms of size. They are not paper thin like a Jazz, nor are they fairly thick like a Precision or MusicMan. I've played a Hofner but it felt so weird, it'd be too hard for me to compare it to any other bass.

[FretlessOnly]

The difference in "reach," as you call it, and that is the perfect term here, is probably confined largely to the first 3 or 4 frets. But, if you do have very small hands, it may be an impediment to you across more parts of the fingerboard.

This all begs another question, since you are mainly a guitarist who is switching to bass:

How do you intend to finger the bass? You certainly can finger it much like a guitar, but in reality (my reality, anyway), the similarities between guitar and bass start and end with body shape and the pitch of the strings. Beyond that, they are completely different animals.

For example, when playing bass, I often rely heavily on my index and pinky fingers (think Jimmy Page), and this style could help to minimize the "reach" issues you mention. However, you may not want to change your style of playing just to accomodate scale length. But then agaqin, in switching to bass, no matter what any of us says, you will, in your own way, most certainly change your playing style for bass as opposed to guitar.

I've played both for over 30 years, so my advice is this: try several instruments of varied scale and see what you feel comfortable with. If you just hate anything longer than 30", either find a 3000 or, you know, find something else.

[jack1953]

The difference in "reach," as you call it, and that is the perfect term here, is probably confined largely to the first 3 or 4 frets. But, if you do have very small hands, it may be an impediment to you across more parts of the fingerboard.

This all begs another question, since you are mainly a guitarist who is switching to bass:

How do you intend to finger the bass? You certainly can finger it much like a guitar, but in reality (my reality, anyway), the similarities between guitar and bass start and end with body shape and the pitch of the strings. Beyond that, they are completely different animals.

For example, when playing bass, I often rely heavily on my index and pinky fingers (think Jimmy Page), and this style could help to minimize the "reach" issues you mention. However, you may not want to change your style of playing just to accomodate scale length. But then agaqin, in switching to bass, no matter what any of us says, you will, in your own way, most certainly change your playing style for bass as opposed to guitar.

I've played both for over 30 years, so my advice is this: try several instruments of varied scale and see what you feel comfortable with. If you just hate anything longer than 30", either find a 3000 or, you know, find something else.

You are so correct John. Beyond the notes being the same as on the first four strings of a guitar, they are different animals. Being a rhythm guitar player, my style would be to play more 'open' chords when the song called for a 'fuller' sound and more bar chords when it called for more of a rock or power sound.

The things I've learned about bass guitar have been amazing and a lot of it came from these forums.
I've learned about 3rd and 5th bass lines.
I've learned about playing bass patterns and playing them where it is the easiest to play.
I've learned if the bass pattern on the song is very basic, I find it easier to play down on the first 4 or 5 frets using all the strings.
I've learned when to use an open string and when not to.
I do find myself using my index finger alot, but as a rhythm guitar player I play all chords anyway so using the index finge wasn't foreign to me.
I use my thumb to pick with. It took a while to develop a callus there but after that, I find it very comfortable for me. I haven't even attempted trying to use the fingers yet. Not sure whether I find it necessary to play that way at present.

GC has no Rickenbackers but they do have the Shechter clone. Wonder how close those neck dimensions are to the Rick. I think I'll go on their site and see if they have them listed. Thanks for the help and advice. A wealth of knowledge as always.
Jack

[jack1953]

By the way, in the meantime, I wanted to get some kind of backup bass to my Hofner, as I do not want to play the other Hofner I'm trying to sell, so I orderd an SX short scale from Rondo for $109. Believe it or not, I've heard some very positive reviews and feedback about them at Talkbass. I'm anxious to give it a go.
Jack

[cassius987]

GC has no Rickenbackers but they do have the Shechter clone. Wonder how close those neck dimensions are to the Rick. I think I'll go on their site and see if they have them listed. Thanks for the help and advice. A wealth of knowledge as always.

I think those basses are very little like a Ric except in the vague "kind of sort of looks like one" way. They are probably more like a Fender overall. I think the neck is similar to a Jazz Bass.

[jack1953]

I just got the neck width at the nut and neck thickness on the Hofner site. The width at the nut is 44mm and the thickness is 22mm.

Rickenbacker site only gives the neck width and at the nut it is listed as 42.9mm. According to that, the Rick is about a mm thinner. Does anyone know what the necks on the Ricks measure in thickness?

Jack

[FretlessOnly]

If you wouldn't mind some comments on some of what you posted. I've numbered your points for comment below:

1) I've learned about 3rd and 5th bass lines.
2) I've learned about playing bass patterns and playing them where it is the easiest to play.
3) I've learned if the bass pattern on the song is very basic, I find it easier to play down on the first 4 or 5 frets using all the strings.
4) I've learned when to use an open string and when not to.
5) I do find myself using my index finger alot, but as a rhythm guitar player I play all chords anyway so using the index finge wasn't foreign to me.
6) I use my thumb to pick with. It took a while to develop a callus there but after that, I find it very comfortable for me. I haven't even attempted trying to use the fingers yet. Not sure whether I find it necessary to play that way at present.

1) You'll soon enough find out (if you haven't already) that the bass is generally the most capable of creating and releasing tension within a piece of music. This gives you both power and responsibility. I love the concept of using thirds and fifths to create both ambiguity and lack of restfullness within the band's sound. Always remember that the root of the chord is the least important note of a chord to establish its identity and function. And always remember that sometimes it just needs to be there for the listener to have a place to hang his hat, as it were. FYI, the third and seventh are the most important for shaping identity and function.

2) Playing things where they are easiset to play is often a necessity, but see point #4.

3) This statement supports your overall premise that a 30" scale bass is really what you need and want. But do try some longer scale basses just to see if they aren't so bad. Joshua's comments about the clearness of tone in longer scale basses is generally very true (there are exceptions to everything).

4) Open notes generally are out of timbre with the rest of your lines, and cannot be shaped with the finger. My advice would be to avoid open notes except in situations involving pedal tones whereby you might be playing a low E, mid E and high E to create a drone. I do this often in drop D tuning with the index finger on mid D and pinky on higher D (much like a barre chord pattern) and it really fills the room. By my advice is to be taken or thrown out as needed.

5) On bass, consider using your middle finger as the root position, and building scales from that position:

G Major scale, from low E string to A string to D string in low position (my notation shows note over finger):

g a
2 4

b c d
1 2 4

e f# g
1 3 4

6) Use of the thumb is very old school (it's how the bass bass was intended to be played on the early P-basses, and use of the thumb gives a very nice, full sound right over the end of the fingerboard) and is very hip in my book. I use my thumb on my upright when the part calls for something slow and full.

Edited to add: As to your last question about Rick neck thickness, there's a mammoth thread here in the bass forum about this. Just search on "measure your girth." Seriously.

[jack1953]

If you wouldn't mind some comments on some of what you posted. I've numbered your points for comment below:

1) I've learned about 3rd and 5th bass lines.
2) I've learned about playing bass patterns and playing them where it is the easiest to play.
3) I've learned if the bass pattern on the song is very basic, I find it easier to play down on the first 4 or 5 frets using all the strings.
4) I've learned when to use an open string and when not to.
5) I do find myself using my index finger alot, but as a rhythm guitar player I play all chords anyway so using the index finge wasn't foreign to me.
6) I use my thumb to pick with. It took a while to develop a callus there but after that, I find it very comfortable for me. I haven't even attempted trying to use the fingers yet. Not sure whether I find it necessary to play that way at present.

1) You'll soon enough find out (if you haven't already) that the bass is generally the most capable of creating and releasing tension within a piece of music. This gives you both power and responsibility. I love the concept of using thirds and fifths to create both ambiguity and lack of restfullness within the band's sound. Always remember that the root of the chord is the least important note of a chord to establish its identity and function. And always remember that sometimes it just needs to be there for the listener to have a place to hang his hat, as it were. FYI, the third and seventh are the most important for shaping identity and function.

2) Playing things where they are easiset to play is often a necessity, but see point #4.

3) This statement supports your overall premise that a 30" scale bass is really what you need and want. But do try some longer scale basses just to see if they aren't so bad. Joshua's comments about the clearness of tone in longer scale basses is generally very true (there are exceptions to everything).

4) Open notes generally are out of timbre with the rest of your lines, and cannot be shaped with the finger. My advice would be to avoid open notes except in situations involving pedal tones whereby you might be playing a low E, mid E and high E to create a drone. I do this often in drop D tuning with the index finger on mid D and pinky on higher D (much like a barre chord pattern) and it really fills the room. By my advice is to be taken or thrown out as needed.

5) On bass, consider using your middle finger as the root position, and building scales from that position:

G Major scale, from low E string to A string to D string in low position (my notation shows note over finger):

g a
2 4

b c d
1 2 4

e f# g
1 3 4

6) Use of the thumb is very old school (it's how the bass bass was intended to be played on the early P-basses, and use of the thumb gives a very nice, full sound right over the end of the fingerboard) and is very hip in my book. I use my thumb on my upright when the part calls for something slow and full.

Thanks for your time and knowledge fretless.

The most intriguing point you made was a point I posted at TB. I asked how many bassists use open strings and it came back pretty much 50/50. The problem, for me, with the open string is if this: say you play an open D and your next note is the B on the 'A' string, I would have to use my middle finger to play the B and use my pinky or ring finger to silence the open D to keep it from ringing over the B. If you are playing the D on the A string then go down to the B, you don't have that problem as the note cuts out the moment your finger leaves the fret. Does that make sense?

[FretlessOnly]

It does make sense, but I would play that a different way. I never line my fingers up based on "frets" - I line them up based on the root of the chord I'm playing (and where on the fingerboard I'm playing them) but, most importantly, where I'm going from there.

So, if I were to play an open d followed by the b you mention, I would play the b with my index finger and damp the open d with the same finger by angling my finger on the b so that the inside of the first knuckle deadens the open d. That way, it's less effort (hand use) to deaden the open d and the added benefit is that the open d is deadened at the exact time that the b is played.

I guess that lastly, notwithstanding my discussion of using the middle finger as the basis of the root poition, I more often use the index finger if I am playing a root fifth octave position, so that's why I would deaden with my index finger. Last related point - I almost always deaden notes with a finger I am using to play a note as opposed to fingers I am not using to play a note. That way, the other fingers are ready to be in position for their next task. Sure, you could deaden a note right over the next position, but I generally play my notes with a fingered attack, that is, I keep the fingering hand fingers poised well above the string.

BTW, if you'd like to go further with this, send me a PM. We (I) should probably keep this thread more on-topic.

[antipodean]

Going from short to long scale and back isn't a problem if you do it often enough. The "practice makes perfect" maxim definitely applies.

Keep in mind I have been playing bass for only a little over a year, even though I've played 6 string guitars off and on for 40+ years and these forums have been a blessing for me as I have learned so much about the bass.

Outside of having the obvious advantage of having more notes, just what is the advantage of the long scale and why most folk prefer long scale to short scale?

What would be the challenge of playing both?

Thanks

Jack

Hi Jack,

Your question re the advantages of long scale basses is an excellent one! Traditionally, long scale basses have a been said to have more sustain than short scale basses of similar construction and will have a more complex tone than a short scale bass with the same construction and string type as the longer strings provide more harmonic overtones. As an example - I have a Fender Musicmaster bass (30" scale) that has a very fundamental-centered tone, whilst my P Bass of identical vintage has more mids and highs. On the other hand, I have found that long-scale basses are more prone to dead spots than short scale basses. There is also the advantage that short-scale basses are usually lighter than their long-scale cousins, though the Rick 3000 is an exception to that rule....

Of course, general rules-of-thumb can be misleading. The best sustain I have ever heard from a bass was a short-scale Hamer. Bass construction has a massive influence on tone and sustain that you need to take into account in addition to scale and string type.

As to the "more notes" issue, short-scale Danelectro Longhorn basses have 24 frets.... that's more than a 4003 or Fender P or J!

In summary, I'd say if a short-scale bass suits you from a playability and tone perspective, then you should feel happy to stick with it. There are some pretty decent short scale basses out there, but sadly precious few short-scale Ricks....

[cassius987]

Traditionally, long scale basses have a been said to have more sustain than short scale basses of similar construction...The best sustain I have ever heard from a bass was a short-scale Hamer.

In my opinion short scale basses will always sustain more because there is less energy wasted on neck flexion. The longer the neck, as a function of scale, the more material there is to transduce mechanical vibrations and waste string energy. My dad's Japanese Hofner copy sustains longer than anything else I can think of, even though its tone is thuddy garbage. Just my two cents.

[kiramdear]

Right now I have two basses: a Hofner copy and a Precision. I've been lurking this thread because I too am keen on a 3000 model. Both my basses have great sustain; I wouldn't say scale was a factor there.

Thanks for an informative thread.

[T.A.R.]

Thanks for an informative thread.

+1

[jack1953]

Right now I have two basses: a Hofner copy and a Precision. I've been lurking this thread because I too am keen on a 3000 model. Both my basses have great sustain; I wouldn't say scale was a factor there.

Thanks for an informative thread.

Kiramdear,

How is the transition back and forth from the short to the long for you? I am going by the local GC on my way to a gig today. I'm going to stop in there and see if they have a Fender Jazz bass, because from the specs I've been able to come up with, the neck dimensions (width and thickness) appear to be close to the Hofner. I want to see if the long scale, in those dimensions, would work for me.

Jack

[jack1953]

In order to keep in line with protocol, I want to start a thread in the Rickenbacker Artists room. I'd like for the folks in here to weigh in on it if you would.
Jack