Vintage "S" Ricks

chronictown · Post by **chronictown** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:04 am

This early photo of Pete Townshend (I think I was about 10 years old when I first saw it) began for me a steadily growing interest in Rickenbacker guitars, to the point now where my appetite far, far exceeds my financial means....

It was only after I became more knowledgable about Rick models that I looked back at this picture and realized that this is an unusual instrument, with a mix of domestic and export features that somehow wound up in the UK circa 1964. I emailed Bjorn Eriksson and he identified it as an old-style (O.S.) 360"S"/12.

Has anybody ever seen another one? I realize that this particular guitar probably wound up as firewood not so long after the photo was taken, and that even normal double-bound vintage 360/12 guitars are extremely rare creatures, but if anybody can share any insight into vintage "S" model Rickenbackers (other photos, production numbers, personal experience, etc.) I'd be very interested to learn more about this topic!

Thanks,
Chris

tblair · Post by **tblair** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:37 am

One of these showed up on Ebay last year, but it was pretty hacked up. There's Pete's, the 1964 NAMM 360/12 OS, and the Ebay guitar that I know of with these features. Not positive that these are all separate instruments, though.

"S" just denotes "Special" (I think)- and you'll find that designation on 60's domestic guitars that were given unique features- like violin f-holes instead of the typical slash.

chronictown · Post by **chronictown** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:57 am

Thanks Anthony - any links to pics of that 1964 NAMM 360/12 OS?

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:54 am

Chris: What a great photo of Townshend and his Rickenbacker 12 string. Tony is right, the "S" stands for special.

The model number of this instrument is a toss up between a Model 360S/12 and a Model 1993SPC. It is, depending on your perspective, either a model 360/12 OS with an f-hole or a model 1993 with triangle fret markers.

In either case, there are only a small number of these vintage models around.

glen_l · Post by **glen_l** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:08 pm

This is a great photo, and shows that this one of Townsend's was yet another early 12 string with no "Made in USA" on the TRC. (Probably not news to most of you guys) As with those few other very early 12's, the TRC has that odd hand-carved shape. The very first Ric 12's had parallel routes for the extra 6 strings (Arden, Campbell, Harrison, Lennon, Townsend, and maybe a few others), requiring an odd shaped TRC. It's one of the best ways to pick them.

By early '64 Ric had changed to the more common route which follows the curve of the headstock, allowing a more conventionally shaped TRC. This one of Townsend's likely predates 1993 production, as even the earliest 1993's I've seen pics of have the later TRC.

There may be a few more of these early 360/12S out there than suspected. I think the hacked up ebay one from last year had the early parallel routes, but it wasn't Townsend's. There's that other one on pg 191 of the Smith book, and another one on Bjorn's site. Probably all different 360/12S guitars, with the odd TRC's. The Nammshow/DeLacy one appears to have a conventional TRC, so that could make it yet another one.

All interesting stuff this

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:14 pm

Just out of curiosity, how much did that guitar on eBay sell for?

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:03 pm

The Rickenbacker that Pete is playing in the pic is more than likely a sample that was sent to Rose-Morris in 1964 for a deluxe 12-string. This guitar has a dual jack-plate and was either Rick-o-Sound or dual mono, and had chrome-top knobs...For reasons unknown R-M passed on having a 360/12 equivalent in their lineup and had the 1993 as their feature 12-string.

This guitar was also one that ended up on the infamous wall of broken Rickenbackers at Pete's house; it is easily seen in the versions of the picture that are not cropped, in the lower left hand corner.

I understand that the 12-string that was on ebay is or will be undergoing a painstaking restoration at one point and the research is ongoing. They are rare, no doubt, IMO no more than 4 or 5 were made. And, they were all made at a time when the Rickenbacker 12-string was not a full-fledged production model.

krick · Post by **krick** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:01 pm

There was at least one very similar reissue made in 1999.

http://www.rickbeat.com/modelslibrary/36012v64fhole/360vs.jpg

chronictown · Post by **chronictown** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:25 pm

Many thanks for all the information. It's very interesting to learn about rarities such as this one, particularly given the historical perspective: a critical time in the company's history and an amazing time for rock music in general. A shame, though, where this particular guitar ended up! (I guess I was expecting that, though...)

I'm surprised that I didn't catch the one that was on Ebay, since I'm a bit of a junkie when it comes to watching Rickenbacker auctions. To second Adam - anybody know how much it finally went for? It would be great to see pics once the restoration is complete.

tblair · Post by **tblair** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:38 am

The one on Ebay went for less than $1500.00 I believe- but the picture was awful, and the seller was apparently pretty difficult to deal with (leading some to be suspiscious of the whole deal).

Also it was routed up with a big piece of plastic over the top, had changed pickups, and a replacement jack plate. A few other issues too. But it was what it was.

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:35 am

I can deal with fixing an oversize rout, but what do you do about the missing jack plate (and serial number)?

That's leads to a question that I've always pondered: if you take the damaged shell of a rare guitar, remove the jack plate (which hinders authentication), give it a refin, body repair, and replacement hardware, what do you have? Is the unusual combination of the violin f-hole, double binding, triangle inlays, and straight routs enough to trump the extensive restoration? No matter how well the work is done, it is what it is (an obvious restoration), and it ain't what it ain't (original). Put another way: what's the guitar worth when the restoration's complete?

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:48 am

Well, I think this is a bit different than taking, say, a mid-70's 4001 and restoring it. A 12-string like this has some historical importance as well due to it's rarity and timeline in the evolution of the model.

It is one of the first 10 Rickenbacker 12-strings ever made IMHO. That makes it pretty important.

With access to the files at Rickenbacker, something such as this wouldn't be too difficult to authenticate I would think, or at least establish a serial number. The hard part is finding all of the correct components and someone to do the job properly. These early guitars had ever-so-slightly different body dimnesions than later double-bound guitars.

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:50 am

Glen wrote

"As with those few other very early 12's, the TRC has that odd hand-carved shape. The very first Ric 12's had parallel routes for the extra 6 strings (Arden, Campbell, Harrison, Lennon, Townsend, and maybe a few others), requiring an odd shaped TRC. It's one of the best ways to pick them."

You can add Gerry Marsden to the list.

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:38 am

John,

That still begs the question: what's it worth? Assume for the sake of argument that the guitar would be worth $10,000 (because it's a round number) in complete, original condition. A restoration (no matter how well it's done) that includes major body repair and replacement hardware (even if it's period correct) is worth less. What I want to know is, how much less?

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:34 am

Peter and Adam: Some of the early 1993 12-strings had hand-shaped TRC's as well, one guitar that definitely has one is the 1993 used in the Rose-Morris publicity stills, and you can see a select few 1993's that do on Bjorn's site. Carl Wilson's 330S/12(basically a 1993 with chrome knobs) had a hand-shaped TRC.

Adam, these guitars change hands so infrequently it would be hard to place a value on one. It would help to have some sort of precedent to go by, but we'll just have to wait. It would ultimately be up to what a buyer is willing to pay, I suppose. I do agree that an original with decent condition vs. a restored example should be worth more, in any case. (unless it's a celeb guitar or whatever...then things can change..)