Neck Issues

[Danhalen]

I hope I'm not overdoing it by starting another thread! I realized that I chose a poor title for my other thread, when the Toronto area tech aspect was only part of my question and I have done more work on my guitar since then. I think I can be much more clear about the issue now. So here goes.

After reading lots of threads on neck issues I decided to remove my strings and loosen up the truss rods. The neck has backbow. With the strings removed and no tension in the truss rods it appears that the amount of backbow is fairly uniform along the length of the neck. It has a little more backbow on the bass side. Is there a difference between a "hump" in the neck or having backbow? I read another thread titled "backbow" where Paul recommended removing the truss rods and flipping them over, as they had most likely turned over, thereby causing backbow. I don't want to do something so drastic without advise of course.

The neck angle looks to be a bit shallow but I am not sure how much of a problem that will pose once the neck is straight. I will worry about that after.

Thanks a lot!

[johnallg]

I hope I'm not overdoing it by starting another thread! I realized that I chose a poor title for my other thread, when the Toronto area tech aspect was only part of my question and I have done more work on my guitar since then. I think I can be much more clear about the issue now. So here goes.

After reading lots of threads on neck issues I decided to remove my strings and loosen up the truss rods. The neck has backbow. With the strings removed and no tension in the truss rods it appears that the amount of backbow is fairly uniform along the length of the neck. It has a little more backbow on the bass side. Is there a difference between a "hump" in the neck or having backbow? I read another thread titled "backbow" where Paul recommended removing the truss rods and flipping them over, as they had most likely turned over, thereby causing backbow. I don't want to do something so drastic without advise of course.

The neck angle looks to be a bit shallow but I am not sure how much of a problem that will pose once the neck is straight. I will worry about that after.

Thanks a lot!

More info on the instrument - model, age, etc. would help those who can help.

[scott_s]

Generally, a "hump" is when there is a wavy irregularity in the fretboard. A backbow is a gradual arch that you can see when sighting down the side of the neck -- this can be corrected easily, in most cases. A trussrod in these guitars can flip over if the body end of the rod slips when being adjusted. The lockwasher at the body-end nut is supposed to bite into the wood and anchor it.

- Scott

[antipodean]

I'd suggest restringing the guitar with minimum tension in the rods (i.e. nuts tightened to the point where there is a little resistance) and then checking the relief before doing anything else. If you still have reasonable back-bow with virtually no truss-rod tension and the strings at concert pitch, then removing the rods will be a step you'll need to undertake. On the other hand you may find that the issue has vanished!

[ken_j]

I posted over on the vintage forum about a guitar I just picked up ('65 340-12)...

Since the guitar you posted in your other thread is a '65 and this is the guitar that you are discussing here, you have the old style rods. The technique required for the older rods is different. There are pics in this section (Vibrola) showing the old style rods and how they should look and be adjusted. Use the search function and see what you get. Do not adjust your rods until you understand the proper procedeure or you may damage the neck/fretboard. You must physically hold the neck in position prior to adding tension on these rods.

[scott_s]

D'oh! I didn't catch that this was a vintage model. Strike the last two sentences from my other post!

- Scott

[Danhalen]

Thanks for the info guys. Sorry for the lack of clarity. The guitar in question is a 1965 340-12. I posted about it in the vintage section.

After sitting overnight with no strings and no tension the neck looks a little straighter actually. Now it looks like it dips a little near the first fret on the treble side or has a very slight twist in that direction. Interesting because I haven't had any problems with it playing cleanly on that side. I'll read up on truss inspection/adjustment and start from there.

[grazioso]

1) take all the tension from neck including loosening the truss rod nuts
2) let it sit for a day and then put the smallest possible tension back on the rods so the upper half of the rods is resting on the aluminum spacer/stop - not more
3) string it up with strings you want
4) adjust the truss rods according to guide for old truss rods gradually by like 1/6 of a turn both if you overdo one side it will have impact on the other side..so easy or you will have to repeat the process
5) adjust the action

if you have balanced set of strings (ric factory set will do) it will show if the neck has some bow or if it is uneven fret or if it needs bit taller nut etc...

if you still have problems i am willing to take a look at it - i will be back on my farm in buffalo from 7/25 to 8/21 ...

[Danhalen]

Dusan, thanks for the kind offer. It may very well come to that.

I strung up the guitar today after first pre-loading the neck and tightening the truss rods a 1/4 turn each. The strings are a custom set of Snake Oil Brand and are very close to the standard Ric set (the high E's are 9.5). These strings are great and sound WAY better than the D'addario 12 string set I had on there. They also buzz a lot less. As far as my neck goes this is what I found:

-Above the 5th fret I have too much relief
-Below the 5th fret I have too little relief (slight backbow), as confirmed by a straightedge
-Based on the relief above the 5th fret, I would want to tighten the truss rod a 1/4 turn per day until the neck was straight or had a very small amount of relief
-Based on the relief below the 5 fret I am not sure what to do!

Help!

[scott_s]

Sounds like a warp to me. After 35 years of faithful service, this guitar probably needs a refret.

[grazioso]

proper heat treatment would be no 1 IF the frets are nice.... or if the frets have enough of the crown left they can be leveled and some of them perhaps reseated ...a bit - not much though - it is ric. if they are already low it is refret time - rejoice ! you can actually make it better guitar now and vintage loonies will not scold you now as well i'd go with stainless steel vintage profile fretwire - e.g. FWSS6230 from warmoth or even gold EVO wire from LMI which is bit easier to work with. no matter what new wire will go on it - it will improve the guitar....

[Danhalen]

The frets are pretty low, I don't think there is much room for crowning. The guitar actually plays better now then it did before I started from scratch with the neck, but I am now fairly certain that it will need a refret to play as new.

It's too bad that it wasn't a really easy fix but on the other hand I am relieved that it does not appear to need a neck reset as I initially feared. I am planning to keep this guitar for a long time so I don't mind restoring it to make it play like a new guitar.

[Danhalen]

After making small adjustments daily for the last couple of days the guitar is playing better than ever now!!! Wow it is really starting to sound good! The neck is not quite straight but one or two adjustments will probably get it there. At this point, the backbow is causing a bit of buzz on the bass strings low on the neck but really not too bad, much better than before. I'm not really sure what happened. Starting from scratch with the neck definitely helped. The next couple of days will tell how much work needs to be done. At least the guitar is at a point where I am really enjoying it! Yeah! Thanks for your help everyone!

[johnallg]

After making small adjustments daily for the last couple of days the guitar is playing better than ever now!!! Wow it is really starting to sound good! The neck is not quite straight but one or two adjustments will probably get it there. At this point, the backbow is causing a bit of buzz on the bass strings low on the neck but really not too bad, much better than before. I'm not really sure what happened. Starting from scratch with the neck definitely helped. The next couple of days will tell how much work needs to be done. At least the guitar is at a point where I am really enjoying it! Yeah! Thanks for your help everyone!

On the bass side, is the rod overtightened? Was the neck straight after a couple days with no string or rod tension? In other words, was the wood allowed to relax to where it wanted to be?