Intonation?

[cjj]

OK, maybe this is more obvious that it seems, but just how does one make intonation adjustments on a fretless? I mean, there's no 12th fret.

Obviously, one could measure to where the 12th fret would be.

Then again, since you're constantly adjusting your finger position to get the right note anyway, do you even need to adjust the individual string intonation (other than to get them reasonably close)?

[winston]

CJ I ran into this when I got my Aria Sinsonido fretless. So this is what I worked out and it seems to work. The harmonic where you twelfth fret would have been if it was fretted, became my reference point CJ. My Aria has lines on the fretboard. Not that they really do anything for you of course. Get it close and as you say finger memory will do the rest.

Joey or one of the other fretless players here may of course have a better solution and if so I will learn the new technique also.

I guess I should add my Aria did not require any adjustment and it's a good thing really because the bridge is not set up to make any adjustment without making some modifications to the bass.

[FretlessOnly]

Unless your instrument's intonation is pretty far out, intonation problems on a fretless are predominantly due to finger positioning rather than the instrument set-up. I own seven fretless electrics and I've rarely adjusted the intonation on any of them. But the 12th "fret" harmonic, along with the other primary harmonics you can get are the best way to gauge how in or out your instrument is.

Before you think me lazy or tin-eared, I learned fretless on double bass that had a slightly warped bridge. Not only can you not adjust the intonation well on a DB (you can angle the bridge one way or another, but it's a tenuous grip on reality you're dealing with there), I had to compensate for the slight curvature of my bridge, so the intonation differed very slightly for each string. So it really is all in the ear. I did eventually get a new bridge for that and I had to re-learn how to play it properly.

This all brings up a point about fingering and intonation and using either lines or side dots. In the lower positions, you can pretty much finger notes with the dot nearly centered in your fingertip, but as you move up the board, you need to have your fingertip "more below" the note for correct pitch. The degree to which this is true depends on the size of your fingers and how hard you finger notes. I finger notes very hard generally, so it's not the center of my fingertip that creates the pitch but rather the "pinky-side" edge of the fingertip that creates the pitch. Because the distance between correct pitches gets so much smaller at and above the octave, the degree to which you need to compensate the dot location relative to your fingertip becomes larger.

I caught some grief for posting something similar a few months back, but I stand by it. Although the ear is the definitive test, developing a hand/eye/ear relationship is critical and becomes especially important when playing faster passages that do not allow time for pitch correction of a particular note or notes. You need that visual/aural relationship to lock the pitch in visually in those cases.

[cjj]

OK, thanks! That's pretty much what I thought.

I'm not having intonation issues, just curious about the whole issue in general. My 4003FL has the standard RIC bridge and I just wondered if there was any reason to mess with the saddles at all.

This isn't an issue on my slide steel since its bridge is just a solid piece of aluminum. I got to wondering if the FL bass could have been done the same way, and if the adjustable saddles were just there because those are standard on a 4003 bridge, which is apparently the case...

[rickenbrother]

I agree with John. You really don't have to worry about how perfectly accurate the intonation is to an exact spot on a fretless bass. Pick your own spot about where the 12th fret would be, that seems right to you and then adjust the intonation of the strings.

[winston]

Thanks John and Joey. I guess I am not as clueless about playing fretless (or any other bass) as I thought I might be.

[FretlessOnly]

Either that or Joey and I are!

[winston]

Either that or Joey and I are!

I don't think so John. Joey for example is a great bass player. He has played bass on a number of my recordings including playing fretless on my version of Georgia On My Mind. Based on your comments, I wouldn't mind betting that you are also a great player.

[jps]

I adjust the saddles on my fretless basses by finding the most "centered" point on the strings for the harmonics at the 12 position of each string and move the saddles so that when I push down on the fingerboard the notes match the harmonics. Depending on the particular bass. strings and range of saddle movement available, you will not get an exact match, but this will get you a lot closer than not trying to adjust them at all. When I got my Martin Keith Elfin all the saddles were set the same, in the middle of the adjustment range on the bridge; I was able to get all the harmonics and "fretted" note to match up with adjustments to the saddles.

[cjj]

That is, of course, the logical solution to the issue. So, as I suspected, in reality it probably doesn't matter a whole lot since you're adjusting for proper intonation of each note "on the fly". But, for the ultimate perfection, adjusting the harmonic to match the center point is probably a good thing to do. And being a nerdy engineer perfectionist, well, I guess you know what I'm gonna do...

[jps]

Good for you!

[winston]

And being a nerdy engineer perfectionist, well, I guess you know what I'm gonna do...

Too funny CJ.

[hieronymous]

I used to be afraid of fretless. I think it was due to the fact that my first fretless, a Fender Japan Jazz Bass, had no lines and only markings for the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th, etc. frets - where they would be on a fretted bass! It was too much for me as a slacker teenager, and I never really played fretless again until recently.

Now I have much more confidence in my playing and my ear - enough to know when the intonation on one string is off, so that I can adjust it and get the "intonation balance" closer across strings. I think I do basically what people have said already. FretlessOnly's detailed description of intonation changing in the higher positions is definitely food for thought!

[cassius987]

I adjust the saddles on my fretless basses by finding the most "centered" point on the strings for the harmonics at the 12 position of each string and move the saddles so that when I push down on the fingerboard the notes match the harmonics.

+1

[rickenbrother]

And being a nerdy engineer perfectionist, well, I guess you know what I'm gonna do...

Too funny CJ.

Don't tell us you're gonna make the world's first single lined (only at the 12th fret) fretless bass!