Pickup outputs with 3 vs. 2 pickups

[Danhalen]

Hello friends,

I measured the outputs on my '65 12 string today. It should be noted that the bridge and neck pickups were measured from a cable in the output jack, while the middle was measured directly from the pickup lead. So the middle would be more like 7.9k in the guitar. Here are the numbers:

Bridge = 7.6k
Middle = 8.1k
Neck = 6.9k

I disconnected the middle pickup today because I thought it was out of phase with the other two. It turns out that the neck pickup is out of phase with the bridge pickup which is interesting because the middle pickup is the one that is non-original to the guitar. I did not expect that. I will be taking the guitar to Mike Spicer in Hamilton to address my neck woes. Hopefully he can also help me with my phase issues.

Do the pickup outputs suggest that this was originally a two pickup guitar since the bridge and neck are fairly close in output?

Also what should I do with the pickups? Should I swap the bridge and middle around so that the hottest pickup is in the bridge? I want it to properly function like a 3 pickup Ric.

Thoughts?

-Dan

[paologregorio]

The hottest pickup should definitely be in the bridge, and since all of your pickups are <1K ohms apart, the neck pickup is probably still sounds the loudest. In addition to moving the hottest p/up to the bridge, I would also suggest sticking a ceramic bar magnet across the underside of the alnico poles on the bridge toaster to further boost output! I've done that to both of my 381s, as well as my Blue Boy, and been quite satisfied with the results.

[Danhalen]

Oh wow. Cool! Where could I get an appropriate magnet? I'd give that a try, curious to know how it would sound. My only concern though is that as it is the guitar overdrives the amp a lot! Because it is a 12'er it might get crazy! I'd still try it though

[8mileshigher]

I'm surprised with the lower output readings .... I would have thought a '65 vintage would have been equipped with the 12k Toasters

[analogpackrat]

Hello friends,

I measured the outputs on my '65 12 string today. It should be noted that the bridge and neck pickups were measured from a cable in the output jack, while the middle was measured directly from the pickup lead. So the middle would be more like 7.9k in the guitar. Here are the numbers:

Bridge = 7.6k
Middle = 8.1k
Neck = 6.9k

How did you measure the bridge DCR at the output jack? Have you removed the 0.0047uF bridge cap? Best would be to measure all of them at the PU leads.

I'm also curious about what DCRs were typical from that era. My '64 "375" which may have been a 365 and had a third pickup added later has DCRs of ~8.5k for neck and middle and ~12k for the bridge. These are all long pole toasters. Are yours long, short, or some of both?

[Danhalen]

I just plugged in a cable and measured from the cable. There is a little more resistance from the wiring but gives an idea. On this guitar there is no .0047 at the moment. I plan to install one though, which will of course alter the output of the bridge pickup even further.

The bridge and middle pickups are long pole, while the neck is short.

On my 1997 reissue, I measured the neck pickup from the leads before it was installed and it was 7.13k. In the guitar,from the cable it measures 6.9k (the same as the neck pickup in this guitar actually!) so in the ballpark. It just occurred to me that it would be possible to measure from the pickup leads while they were installed. Never even thought of that before I measured the middle on from the pickup lead because I unhooked it to see if it was the one that was out of phase.

Doug, your outputs probably work better in a 3 pickup guitar, or at least as designed. At one point I thought about putting the guitar "back" to a 2 pickup configuration. But then I realized that that would be expensive to cover the hole and I actually prefer the middle position on a 3 pickup guitar vs. 2 a lot. I'm not crazy about the neck/middle combo however... I'm not sure what to do about the output of the pickups but I do think that wiring the 3 position switch as if there were two pickups, with a kill switch for the middle would be the best for my purposes.

[analogpackrat]

Ah, no bridge cap. Otherwise you cannot measure DCR of the bridge PU from the jack.

On my 375 the neck PU is still louder than the bridge, so I have to back off the neck in the in-between setting. I've recently put a new guard and electronics on it with the fifth knob wired as middle volume and a push-pull switch on the fifth knob for the bridge pickup cap. Now I can get all of the classic two pickup tones, the three pickup tones, and any combination of the three PUps (with some knob fiddling). And also be able to switch the bridge cap in and out. Very useful and I highly recommend it. Middle alone with no tone control is a nice sound which has some bite and some low end, but neither is dominant. Mixing middle with neck or middle with bridge can get some Strat like tones.

I used the 500k linear pot with switch that RIC sells. Good luck with it.

[paologregorio]

Google online magnet suppliers, or check a local Art supply store. You might even be able to find them at a hardware store. Also, you'll want to measure the dimensions of your bridge p/up rout to ensure the magnet fits. I just used the bar magnets from broken hi gain pickups that I had lying around.

Even with a magnet stuck to the underside of your bridge toaster, the pickup will not be significantly louder than your neck p/up. It's more likely that it will be either the same volume, or only slightly louder than the neck.

[Danhalen]

Paul thanks for the tip. I'll check that out. I dropped the guitar off today to get the neck fixed and a couple of other little issues sorted out. When I get it back, I think I will swap the middle and bridge pickups around and then try the magnet trick. Will the bright cap throw that off at all (I will most likely install one)?

Also Doug I like your idea as well, definitely worth considering. So if I understand it, your middle pickup is wired through the 5th knob and straight out to the jack?

[analogpackrat]

Essentially, yes. To make sure the Rick-O-Sound still works you have to do it correctly, but it is an easy mod--move two wires and tack the NC lug on the mixer pot to the pot case (gnd). There's a thread on this forum and on the RIC forum (search for "iiipopes mod" there) describing what to do. The cap switch is also a great thing to have. Bridge alone without cap is nice, but bridge w/cap mixed with neck is the classic Rick tone.

Hey, Paul--does big red have the bar magnet?

[paologregorio]

Paul thanks for the tip. I'll check that out. I dropped the guitar off today to get the neck fixed and a couple of other little issues sorted out. When I get it back, I think I will swap the middle and bridge pickups around and then try the magnet trick. Will the bright cap throw that off at all (I will most likely install one)?

Also Doug I like your idea as well, definitely worth considering. So if I understand it, your middle pickup is wired through the 5th knob and straight out to the jack?

Essentially, yes. To make sure the Rick-O-Sound still works you have to do it correctly, but it is an easy mod--move two wires and tack the NC lug on the mixer pot to the pot case (gnd). There's a thread on this forum and on the RIC forum (search for "iiipopes mod" there) describing what to do. The cap switch is also a great thing to have. Bridge alone without cap is nice, but bridge w/cap mixed with neck is the classic Rick tone.

Hey, Paul--does big red have the bar magnet?

Big Red does not have the bar magnet; instead it has a custom 14K toaster, wound by forum member Se'rgio Silva. Sergio wound me a 12K neck toaster, as well as two 14K bridge toasters. They're wound around Alnico 3 magnets. One bridge toaster is in Big Red, the other is in my Azure Glo Blue WB.

I would suggest bypassing the .0047 cap, or carefully desoldering it altogether. It cuts tone and makes the pickup overly brittle/bright/thin sounding.

[chucksimms]

I am the first to admit I know very little about pickups, but I have a question on this very topic related my '68 375 O.S. Right now, it sounds like a strat, which I do not like. It seems pretty wimpy, especially compared to my '66 365 which sounds very full bodied. I did remove the cap as per others' suggestions and not a lot of difference. If I add windings is that going to improve things? Is that a reversible mod? I love this guitar- plays unbelievably well and is gorgeous but do not care for the sound.

Please help- I am trying to follow this as I understand very little about pickups. I always feel like Oddball in Kelly's Heroes, sitting beside his broken down Sherman tank while eating cheese and drinking wine.

Kelly: Aren't you going to help fix it?

Oddball: Hey man, I just ride 'em, I don't know what makes 'em work!

[sloop_john_b]

Which switch position sounds Strat-like to you, Chuck?

[chucksimms]

Which switch position sounds Strat-like to you, Chuck?

Actually, all of them! At least on the neck position it sounds like a good strat. It's hard to explain other than it seems so wimpy compared to my 365. It's kind of thin and 'plinky' sounding, with not a great deal of output.

[analogpackrat]

Chuck--my '64 375 was a bit like that, too, before my mods. I can still get the stratty tones by mixing the middle pickup in. You might try temporarily disconnecting the middle pickup from the switch to see if you like the two pickup tone better. If so, the fifth knob middle volume mod may be in your future. As Paul mentioned, the bridge alone with the cap is a bit thin (still useful for some things)--that's why I put the cap switch in mine. It definitely increased my tone satisfaction. YMMV. Batteries not included. Solder fumes may be hazardous to your health. Tastes vary, etc.