Double Bound Terminology

[8mileshigher]

Since joining the Double Bound club, I'm a little unclear about some of our references to Double Bound models ... OS and WBs, etc.
For starters, I'm not sure I understand the difference between a WB and WBBS ??
Aren't all WB's Bound on both sides ? Or does a WBBS have a lighter shade of Binding than the traditional Binding which yellows with age ?

In the same vein, does an OS WB differ from an OS WBBS ?
I know many WBs came standard with High Gains, but are all OS models standard with Vintage Pickups or not necessarily ?

Would both C63 and V64 360 models be correctly identified as OS or not ?

Which Double Bound 360 models have a Bound Sound Hole ? Does it depend upon manufacture year ?

Any other aspects of OS to consider for understanding the differences ?

[winston]

Oh Paulie..........Rich needs you.

I'll let Paul and other members go ahead and describe the differences to you Rich. This should be a good thread at the end of the day.

Btw welcome (again) to the exclusive Double Bound club.

[libratune]

Since joining the Double Bound club, I'm a little unclear about some of our references to Double Bound models ... OS and WBs, etc.
For starters, I'm not sure I understand the difference between a WB and WBBS ??
Aren't all WB's Bound on both sides ? Or does a WBBS have a lighter shade of Binding than the traditional Binding which yellows with age ?

In the same vein, does an OS WB differ from an OS WBBS ?
I know many WBs came standard with High Gains, but are all OS models standard with Vintage Pickups or not necessarily ?

Would both C63 and V64 360 models be correctly identified as OS or not ?

Which Double Bound 360 models have a Bound Sound Hole ? Does it depend upon manufacture year ?

Any other aspects of OS to consider for understanding the differences ?

Personal preferences here: I use OS to refer to any guitar made after 1960 that has a double bound body and was issued with vintage toaster pickups. So the OS population stops around 1969 and doesn't include double bound 4005s.

I use WB to refer to double bound 4005s of whatever vintage and guitars issued 1970 and thereafter with double bound bodies. The 360-series OS bodies and the 4005 WBs of the 1960s don't have bound soundholes; 1970 and after WBs generally do; although there are likely some exceptions. I think that non-bound-soundhole-WB-spotting is catching on, like birdwatching. Attracts the same crowd.

WBBS has fallen out of use; to me it's the same as WB. I believe it was intended to mean "White Binding Both Sides" or "With Binding Both Sides" or perhaps also other things, like "What a Bunch of Ball Sockets."

In my experience, with a few exceptions, if a Rick has double-bound body, the binding is the same material/style/color on both sides. Exceptions include some pre-1960 F bodies (checkered binding front, plain binding back) and some other other rarities like the 6006 Banjoline (same thing).

It is understood that reissues, like 360-series V64 and C63, are reissues of OS guitars so the OS designation is redundant. V64 ov C63 says it all.

That's all I can recall right now. Personal observation and recollection only. No research done here!

Please let me know where I am mistaken or incomplete in my observations.

[paologregorio]

Since joining the Double Bound club, I'm a little unclear about some of our references to Double Bound models ... OS and WBs, etc.
For starters, I'm not sure I understand the difference between a WB and WBBS ??

The original, original 360 models, say, up until mid-1964, so every 360 model up until that time was bound on both sides; the "OS", for "Old Style" designation did not come about until the 360 "New Style" or "NS". . . or "Toilet Seat" (TS) as some of the factory folks called it, was put into production. Once the NS 30s came out, the two modles were differentiated by "OS" bfor the "Old Style" double bound models, and the latter guitlar.

An OS model has 21 frets, toaster pickups, and an unbound sound hole, unless someone special ordered one with sound hole binding, which I have yet to see an example of. Why the the OS models did not have the sound hole bound is a mystery to me, since the NS 360s have bound sound hole.s I dunno, maybe the guys in the wood shop were too tired to other with sound hole binding after applying binding to every other edge of the guitar body and neck.

WBBS models stand for "white binding, both sides" and are 24 fret, double bound models. Curiously, except for maybe a few early 70s models, nmost of the six string examples, yours being one of the excepions, Rich, have bound sound holes, while most of the 70s and early, early 80s models (say maybe up to `82, IIRC) have unbound sound holes. The WBBS and WB models are the same, it's just that at some point, RIC dropped the latter two letters from the model designation. . . so one could order a WB, without any BS. . . . I'm not sure if WB without the BS still means "White Binding", or if the designation changed to "with binding", or as I'm prone to react, "WOW!!! BINDING!!!"

Aren't all WB's Bound on both sides ?

All WBs are indeed bound on both sides.

Or does a WBBS have a lighter shade of Binding than the traditional Binding which yellows with age ?

Nope, same stuff, basically, unless RIC changed the binding material. Even if RIC did, the change in designation has nothing to do with it... no BS!

In the same vein, does an OS WB differ from an OS WBBS ?

There is no OS WBBS; a 21 fret, double bound model is an "OS", while a 24 fret, double bound model is either a "WBBS", or a "WB", depending on what RIC was designating the model as tha year. Somewhere along the line in the mid 70s, the inlays also went from the 50s and 60s full-width type to the smaller, poured inlays.

I know many WBs came standard with High Gains, but are all OS models standard with Vintage Pickups or not necessarily ?

Hard to say "all" in the case of either model; generally, OS models came with 21 frets and toasters, while the WBBS/WB models came with 24 frets and hi gains. During the transition from 21 frets to 24 frets, and the transition from toasters to hi gains, one might find an OS-equipped withhi gains, or a WBBS equippped with toasters, but I have yet to see that, IIRC.

In the early 80s, RIC reintroduced "toasters", which were called "vintage chrome bar pickups" whenintroduced. These were the "hot" 12K ohm toaster pickups, rather thanthe muchmore recent "Scatterwound" 7.4K ohm toasters.

Would both C63 and V64 360 models be correctly identified as OS or not ?

One could call them "OS" style models because they look like OS models due to the 21 frets, vintage pickups, unbound sound hole, and vintage style, full witdh inlays, but the original 60s models had internal "X" or "cross" bracing, while the 360 V64 models do not. The V64 models have the current type Rick guitar internal routing. the 360 C63 models, in both the available 12 string model, as well as the limited to 60 units for Japan Shinsedo limited edition models have the same "X" bracing that the OS models have, but they're probably best described as OS replicas or OS reissues, though I suppose they could qualify as "new" OS models, since they are constructed faithfully according to OS style specs (though the specs wrt dimensions and neck size for the original OS models varied depending on who was cutting and shaping the guitars back then).

FYI, there are a couple or a few bound soundhole 360 V64s out there IIRC, because soundhole binding was available as an extra cost option. Also, Scott Baillie has a magical proces for introducing soundhole binding to V64s, but I cannot reveal the secret.

Which Double Bound 360 models have a Bound Sound Hole ? Does it depend upon manufacture year ??

Pretty much, or on the person applying the finding, o if the model was a six or 12 string. Why? I don't know. See above, though it appears that not until `83 or so that a bound sound hole became FIRMLY standard for both the 12 and 6 dstring WB models.

Any other aspects of OS to consider for understanding the differences ?

I think you've asked all the right questions, and I've covered it as thoroughly and correctly as I can.... and maybe as exhaustively as I can. Anyone still awake out there? I don't think I made any mistakes in my answers, but if I did, Paul W or John Hall will probably be along shortly to set me straight, and apply the deserved ribbing. . .

[kiramdear]

You guys amaze me.

[winston]

The in depth knowledge is amazing on this forum. Just part of the reason why I love this place, but the biggest part of why I love this place is the people who freely share their knowledge. Like Paul who is probably in the middle of a study session and took time to respond.

Thanks guys (Ron and Paul) for sharing the wealth of knowledge that you both possess.

[8mileshigher]

The in-depth knowledge is amazing on this forum.
Thanks guys (Ron and Paul) for sharing the wealth of knowledge that you both possess.

For sure !! Well said, Brian !
This is really an excellant explanation ... I suspect part of the confusion comes from having multiple acronyms for the same instrument i.e. WB and WBBS. This is an explanation to save for posterity.

[scotty]

Rich here is a more drastic binding this this commonly known a WBBBBAAAAAHHHGGGHH S. http://www.myseveralworlds.com/2007/07/ ... otbinding/

[paologregorio]

Rich here is a more drastic binding this this commonly known a WBBBBAAAAAHHHGGGHH S. http://www.myseveralworlds.com/2007/07/ ... otbinding/

Jeez, Scott, why'd you have to go post that link; BLECH! I thought it was a link to a page demo-ing your nifty sound hole binding technique, and . . . I've seen examples of this once before on a TV program I watched about China.

Thanks for the compliments, Brian, Rich. Ron and I basically said the same thing, in different ways, with a bit of overlap, and fill ins for each other, as well as personal observation.

When I can rattle off all of my law school material as easily as what I know about double bound models, I'll know I'm getting somewhere at school. . .

[8mileshigher]

Rich, here is a more drastic binding, this this commonly known suffering-for-beauty-graphic-photos-of-chinese-footbinding/

Jeez, Scott, why'd you have to go post that link; BLECH! I thought it was a link to a page demo-ing your nifty sound hole binding technique, and . . .

U-h-h-h-h-h ...... this brings a whole new, painful meaning to the Double Bound Club in ancient China.

[johnhall]

It's really pretty simple:


WB=WBBS=OS

[Woodie]

Well it is and it isn't. Models with the WB designation, at least those beginning in the 80's, had inlaid fret markers, 24-fret necks. RIC-O-Sound and (for the most part) bound sound holes. I'm not aware of any OS-designated models with those features. But hey, you're the expert, I'm just sayin'.