HiGains vs. Toasters on a 4003FL

[Low End Lover]

Hello,

Didn't see that this topic had been discussed on this particular forum, so I thought it was time to put it out there. I just pulled the trigger on a minty 2008 4003FL in MG (I am a JG guy, but I think this one was worth leaving the dark side for in this instance ). I was blown away by some audio of how DB sounding these Ric FL's can get, especially with Toasters. I am really wanting to use this to play jazz, so as close as I can get to a DB tone is what I am after. However, not being able to compare them live, I wanted to get some feedback about what folks with experience have noticed.
It is worth mentioning that Cassius has been a HUGE help in answering my questions and figure he'll chime in with his well-informed opinion at some point. The one comment he mentioned is that the Toasters have "more clarity". Not sure what that means, though.
Also, I noticed that the Ric botique only has Toasters for the neck position right now. Is there a difference in the neck and bridge toasters or is it one in the same?
Once I get the bass and get a feel for it, I may have a set of Hi-Gains to sell or trade. Just something to keep in mind.
Alright, let's get some good discussion going!

Thanks,

LEL (Jason)

[rickenbrother]

I used my '75 4001FL to record on this song, hi gain neck pickup only. I was getting way too much mwah from that didn't fit right in this song, so I lightly touched the strings with the mute, just enough to mellow most of the mwah.
That 4001FL has a set of D'Addario ECB-80 Chromes.
Brian Medway performed all the other parts as well as the vocal. The guitar you hear in the song doing the solo is his 360V64.

"Georgia On My Mind"

[Low End Lover]

Joey,

Thanks for the link. I will give that a listen.

All,

I just called Ric customer service and talked to Richard and he said there never was a Toaster pickup made for the bridge position and that it went from horseshoe to HiGain. I know I don't want to deal with a horseshoe, but he did say a Toaster can be adapted to fit in the bridge position.
So , my question is, to really get a good DB/upright tone, is a Toaster in the neck position enough or do you go all out and get 2 Toasters?
Thanks for any help I can get on this.

LEL

[FretlessOnly]

Hey Jason: I replaced the neck hi-gain with a toaster on my '08 4003FL and I do prefer the sound now. It's a bit more focused and clear than with the hi-gain. I know Joshua is a big fan of the double toaster set-up; I think I'll keep the bridge hi-gain the way it is. I tend to use the 4001 sound fairly often and I think the hi-gain may provide more bite than the toaster in that configuration. But for DB sound, I'd think that wo toasters might get you closer.

You can just buy two toasters and use them. One will wire right into the neck position as is. You'll need to do some relatively minor mods to the treble pickup configuration to get the toaster in there. I think Joshua sent me a PM on this a while back' I'll see if I can forward it to you.

[cassius987]

So , my question is, to really get a good DB/upright tone, is a Toaster in the neck position enough or do you go all out and get 2 Toasters?
Thanks for any help I can get on this.

Very often the neck pickup is soloed for warm, bass-y parts and so in all likelihood one Toaster might be all you need.

A bridge pickup Toaster has more of a "warm Jazz Bass" sound to it actually. Good for *modern* jazz--I used that a lot for Herbie Hancock, Freddie Hubbard, later Miles Davis, etc. For double bass sounds I would just solo the neck pickup. So save yourself some dough because if you're just after double bass tones you really only need the one pickup.

Two Toasters together is a totally different sound from Toaster + Hi-Gain, but I'm not sure which I prefer. The Toaster + HG sounds more hollow, the dual Toaster setup sounds more even-response.

If you were really going to go double Toasters and buy new pickups consider Jason Lollar's "Toaster-ish" pickup that he sells in RWRP pairs. A bit cheaper than the real thing but likely to sound as good. He told me once that they aren't a perfect fit into the pickguard, I guess you have to file a tiny bit of material for them to fit as they are ever so slightly bigger/have sharper corners.

[Low End Lover]

Two Toasters together is a totally different sound from Toaster + Hi-Gain, but I'm not sure which I prefer. The Toaster + HG sounds more hollow, the dual Toaster setup sounds more even-response.

More hollow... I am assuming you mean more uprightish/DB? Is this an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HHr3Ub8Jm4

He says in the comments that he has a Toaster in the neck, but doesn't mention what is in the bridge, so I am guessing he left the Hi-Gain in.

I do like some modern jazz as well, so that might be something I work on.

Sorry, discussing tone can get so subjective and I am trying to make sure I follow you.

LEL

[cassius987]

Hollow can be considered upright-ish but that also depends on what sort of upright you're emulating; still I think generally hollow equates with an upright-ish tone.

If you like his tone, he is on this forum, and yes I'm fairly certain his 4001FL has got a Hi-Gain in the bridge position. Want to know a cool thing about that? A bridge Hi-Gain is crazy easy to convert to RWRP for hum-canceling.

I think the best thing for you will be to use the stock pickups for two or three weeks, then start thinking about changing stuff up. You'll be glad you did when you look back on this, even if you do change the pickups. John waited a good long while before putting a Toaster in his 4003FL so he can better evaluate whether he likes the change because he didn't just bypass the initial setup. Of course, I know how you feel--excited about your new bass and you have all of these plans concocted about what to do with it... I did too. I loved my 4003FL from the first moment I touched it and it is still my favorite. But listen to my wisdom from hindsight--I was trigger happy. Even though I regret nothing I did as far as modding, I should have moved more slowly than I did to really keep track of the changes. Now I can barely remember how I felt about those stock Hi-Gains (in the case of my 4003FL). First just get to know your new partner in crime and how it works just as it is, then you can make a much more informed decision about how to move. Plus the neck Hi-Gain is no slouch as Joey has shown; you can always get a vintage neck Hi-Gain if you like that lower resistance clarity too.

I think you'll really love your new 4003FL if it's anything like mine--and being from the same production run it likely is--and I look forward to seeing what you do with it.

By the way, Toasters from the boutique seem to be moving much more slowly than a couple of years ago so I don't think you need to worry about them going out of stock; if they do it still won't be long before they're back.

[Low End Lover]

Cassius,

You make a lot of excellent points. You are right that Joey really does tame those Hi-Gains nicely for the song. Most people would never give a Ric that much credit for versitility, but it must be mentioned that Joey's technique is an important part of that equation. His intonation is inspiring!
I supposed the excitment is part of it, but another part of it is I will be driving 7 hours round trip to see Scott and his expertise will be quite helpful here. BTW, can he help with the RWRP on the bridge pickup? How long does it take?
I will give it some time as you suggest. I think a neck Toaster will be as much as I do, but will give with the Hi-Gains their due.

Thanks again to all for the excellent post thus far!

LEL

[cassius987]

I supposed the excitment is part of it, but another part of it is I will be driving 7 hours round trip to see Scott and his expertise will be quite helpful here. BTW, can he help with the RWRP on the bridge pickup? How long does it take?

Scott has never done it to my knowledge but I have and I can assure you he is quite capable of it--he's a better luthier (best term I can think of) than I am for sure. I will write up a procedural for him if you want.

Are you handy with a soldering iron? If so you will not need his help installing a different neck pickup. Where I needed his help was really with the bridge Toaster because it's a bit of a different install, and the way my 4003FL was made was kind of strange--there is basically extra wood on the body wings at the bridge pickup and tailpiece mute routs. Frankly I don't know how it happened--CNC goof up or what--but Scott had to rout some of this extra wood so the Toaster would fit. I was not handy with a Dremel then and I'm not much better with one now. I wonder if other 4003FLs from this batch were the same way--I have no way of knowing.

[Low End Lover]

Scott has never done it to my knowledge but I have and I can assure you he is quite capable of it--he's a better luthier (best term I can think of) than I am for sure. I will write up a procedural for him if you want.

Yes, that would be great! Would it be worth doing on the '10 4003 as well?

LEL

[cassius987]

That's up to you--do you get annoyed by 60 Hz hum (do you even perceive it)? If so, sure thing. If not, then leave it be, because if it ain't broke... One thing's for sure, matched pickups will do a slightly better job hum-canceling than mis-matched pickups, although sometimes the stars align and mismatches of different impedances still hum-cancel as well as a matched pair.

[Low End Lover]

Oh yeah, my 4003 has a loud hum around my amp that sounds like the ol' 60 hz hum to me. I even asked Scott if shielding was worth doing and he doubted it would help that much.

[cassius987]

Shielding wouldn't--you do RWRP or humbuckers for that. If it doesn't bother you, ignore it. You mostly can't hear it when playing.