Setup 620/12

[Ric_MEL]

Recently purchased a used ( 2000 production ) 620/12.

So far. very disappointed.

I've played a friends 2009 production 360/12.. and it plays very easily. That's where i made the determination.. that the "narrow" neck.. was OK.

This 620/12 I can barely play. without a lot of effort and very precise changing of how I finger my 1st position chords. Played his again this weekend. .and .. sheesh. piece of cake. Really not much harder than a 6 string.

I've restrung it with RIC strings ( a definite improvement .. ) . and I note a very slight relief...

so I'll TIGHTEN the truss rod nuts 1/4 turn.. each.. to straighten the neck ( please confirm this is correct: Tighten to eliminate relief.. and flatten the neck )

and I'll adjust the bridge height once that done as the action is higher ( than the 360 I'm comparing it to)

Someone on the Vibrola section noted something I did NOT know:

That the production of 12 strings from about 2005.. have used a different nut? than in years before.. and the new<er> nuts are cut with more spacing between pairs?
They suggested I purchase a new nut from RIC.. and that it would give me a better spacing.

Otherwise,.. I'm going to have the sell the darn thing. ... cause it's just no comparison to my pals 360... or a new 330 at the local dealer.. which supposedly have the same width necks!

[teb]

Selling a guitar because it needs a proper, professional set-up and maybe even a simple nut replacement job seems rather drastic. I have to modify the nuts and string spacing on my twelves because I have big, old, wide, bassplayer fingertips, and other folks often have different needs and styles and may need other work done to get their guitars to play the way they like. It comes with the territory when you cram twelve strings into such a small space, but the sound and feel you're looking for is in there. It just may take a little work to bring it out and get the guitar set up so that it's comfortable for you.

[Ric_MEL]

I definitely hope I can get "there" ..from "here". .and am perfectly willing to go through the paces.. to get it done .. ie. setup.. and replace the nut as need be..

As you note. .with so many strings on a reasonably narrow neck.. all parameters are very critical on a RIC

I have short reasonably stubby fingers.. so I don't have much margin of error in the string spacing..
I was really surprised to find how different these two guitars play! or more accurately: how one is playable.. and the other isn't !~

[steverok]

If you can find someone to do it, I would always opt for a custom nut over any RIC nut. In my opinion, the new ones are much better, but still not there for me. I recently bought a 2009 330-12, but still had a custom nut made for it. I actually drew up the string spacing, to 1/128 inch resolution, on my computer, and gave it to the luthier. He made a graphite nut to my specification. Still, if I were to do it again, I would tweak it further. The neck is so narrow, you really need to be very precise as to how you want it laid out, if you want to be truly happy with it. My $0.02.

[Ric_MEL]

My local guitar repair shop ( 12th fret in Portland, OR )

guy who answers the phone right off says .. " Oh man.. those RICs are REeeallly a bear to work on " .. I love their sound tho'

just a set up would be $135.. and a custom nut is at least $100..

when I asked how bout if I bought a nut from RIC and they put THAT on.. he says.. hmmm.. well .. that'd be $100 just by itself..


so just from a brief phone conversation.. I'm not overwhelmed with confidence in them.. I guess shops just don't see too many Rickenbackers..

* If anyone has a good recommendation for a RIC qualified luthier here in the Portland OR area. .pls advise! *

In the meantime: I'll at least head down this road myself to begin with.. and use a shop if I can't get things right.. I

I assume the RIC nut showing on their web site: # 03327 " NUT STD 12 String" .. @ $9.00.. works for every model except the wider necked 660. ( note: they do show a separate one for the 660 model ) ..

re: Nut height: I see threads that say to fret strings between 2nd and 3rd fret.. and the string should JUSSSSST clear the first fret.. as the method to ascertain nut height.

tnx!
M

[buchrob]

Well, maybe you are dealing with the receptionist who doesn't care at all if the job gets in the shop at all, let alone being done rightly.

I can tell you from personal experience, as a guy who has very big fat fingers, that I did it myself to a relatively cheap Korean 12-string guitar.

You can easily move the outside strings over a bit, then narrow the spacing between the octave strings a bit, to make it feel more like a 6 with a relatively inexpensive purchase of a 660/12 nut from the Ric boutique as a guide.

The key to the whole venture is the get the neck PERFECTLY straight so that there is NO buzzing up and down. At the bridge, the various models are all pretty much the same, and typically on a 12 you are not playing that high up the neck.

There are MANY contridictory posts regarding 610/620/330/360 / 12 etc as being perfect or feeling like playing with oven mitts on, but rarely anything in between..

You should always try before you buy, but the 660/12 nut is the best guide I have yet seen, and you can even stretch it some.

And YES, nut HEIGHT is critical.

[Ric_MEL]

well.. I just spend another block of time .. slowly trying to fret chords .. and get each pair to ring clear.. and it's coming..

.. with a proper nut.. height.. string spacing etc. - and a careful set up .. it's likely to become WAY more playable..

it's an adventure..

does this mean that every 12 string version RIC ( non 660 ) produced before 2005 .. has the narrow neck AND this.. kind of.. impossible nut ?
I never knew.. no wonder many people complain .. they're veeery tough to play.

so many of the guitars on eBay and craigslist.. are pre-2005.. !

** Note: I did go in and play a 660/12 at Apple music couple weeks ago.. and after fighting with this narrow spacing.... those feel downright SPACIOUS! you could wear gloves with those! LOL

[steverok]

Probably do NOT take it to that place (12th Fret). To charge you $100 just to stick a factory nut on there is a major rip-off, and if they make you one, you probably wouldn't even be happy with it. If I were going to pay that much, they better make a custom one, to my spec's. Don't pay them $100 to make one, if you don't even know what you're going to get. I have replaced the nut on every 12-string I have ever owned, and, with the exception of Mark Arnquist, the only times I was happy was when I told them EXACTLY what to do. My $0.02 again.

[teb]

Yes, those prices are pretty crazy - especially considering that they probably have little or no experience working on Rickenbackers. I've come to believe that the old "Ricks are hard to work on" line actually means that they haven't tried it and are afraid of them. I'm not a luthier, but I actually think working on my Rickenbackers seems pretty straightforward and logical. Two truss rods gives you control over the neck shape that I wish I had on some of my other guitars and basses, the bridge adjustments are pretty simple and nut replacement isn't at all difficult.

If you want to become your own, highly-skilled "nutster" just go on eBay and pick up a set of Norman Nut Files. They aren't exactly cheap, but they're a lot less than those available from the luthier supply places and they're just as easy to use as the eBay listing claims they are. If you start with a purchased nut blank, you can build, install and adjust a new nut in about an hour with any sort of string spacing you want. The first one I made was for my 340/12 and I just cut it from a hunk of epoxy/graphite leftover from a boat project in the bottom of a mixing cup. Following the directions, the process of slotting and adjusting it was surprisingly easy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Norman-Guitar-Nut-F ... %26ps%3D63

I like the strings spread out just as much as is humanly possible, but tight pairs, and I play with a pretty light touch. Here are my 370/12 with the Arnquist nut on the bottom and my 340/12 with my cobbled-together graphite nut at the top. Granted, Mark does neater work than I do and started with more normal blank, but now I can actually play my spare twelve - and it plays quite well. If I'd been able to buy a set of these files 40 years ago, it would have saved me a lot of grief over the years, just in minor playability adjustments to new instruments.

[Ric_MEL]

Hi Todd..

thanks for the link. Yes.. I'd rather spend some $ on the tools.. and learn how to take care of my own RIC. In the long run.. will save $ and get it just like I want..

Looks like you did a very tidy job on your custom nut.

Note: Is there a reference to a blank nut that be purchased.. that is a good fit for the RIC? Stew Mac lists them for: Fender, Gibson and Martin guitars.. ??

My string pairs themselves are not horribly spaced... a tiny bit of room to tighten those up.. but there is indeed space wasted at the edge of the fretboard. ( mostly the high e side ). It's a game of .. thousandths of an inch.. in each instance.. By the time you add up all the little gains.. should make quite a difference in playability. It's a bound fretboard so that impinges a tiny bit in available space..

Re: Mr.<Mark?> Arnquist that I see referenced.. Googled him.. see old references to him ( Seattle,Wa area.. and BeatGear Cavern forum ).. Is he a regular here? , still available should one want a custom nut.. ( that I would install ... ) ?

Interesting: I live just a few miles from Aloha, OR... home of Dale Fortune.. who < via this forum > I learn is a RIC man extraordinare.. but last posts I saw he was having a tough time as of recent.. and I'm sure the last thing HE'D want to deal with is a RIC newby with a setup problem!~

Mark

[teb]

Mark Arnquist is a former Rickenbacker employee and one of his specialties is setting up Rick twelves for maximum playability. Generally, it's done as a package that includes making and installing a new nut with wider string spacing, aligning the string paths to the neck, adjusting the bridge location, intonating the guitar, deburring various hardware parts and as he puts it "bringing these aspects up to vintage specs" the way they did back in the day. This may include such things as trimming the TRC, smoothing and polishing the bridge saddles and pickguard edges, making more room inside the control cavity for the switch portion of the non-ROS jack, deburring the back side of the R tailpiece and other detailing items. It's not a cheap service, but it can make quite a difference in the way the guitar plays. On my 370/12, I even had him go a step farther and re-fret it, all the way out to the outer edges of the binding to give me even more room. I haven't corresponded with Mark in quite a while and don't know what his current status is, but the two Rick twelves that he set up for me (the 370/12 and my first 360/12) play beautifully.

Most good luthiers probably won't have much interest in just cutting you a new nut because that's just half of the job. In order for it to work well, the string slots then need to be adjusted on the guitar, to fit that particular guitar. If you own your own files, you can do it yourself by following instructions - and if you're going to do the adjustments yourself and have the files, you might as well start from scratch with a blank and cut the slots yourself. As far as what nut blank to buy, you might need to check on the dimensions of the various blanks with the seller. You can always make one smaller or re-shape the top curve to match your old one, but the closer the blank is to what you need, the less work it is. I can tell you that the Martin nut would be a bad choice. The nut on my Martin twelve is a monster when compared to a Rickenbacker nut.

[Ric_MEL]

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the tips. ! The refret with frets extending over the binding is a great trick.. would really gain some real estate by utilizing the entire fretboard width.-- albeit a full refret is major surgery ( $$ ) on the guitar.

I can also fathom that if one were to take this whole issue further.. theoretically the bridge slots would need to be redone - slightly repositioned to guide the strings < in their wider orientation > all the way down the fretboard.

It's like remodeling the kitchen for the wife.. ends up with a whole house paint job and all new furniture!

I did find Mark at the BeatGear Cavern forum and have contact info if you are interested.

* a burning question I have.. as a RIC newbie... is: It's obvious the controversy over neck width and 12 string cram is an old topic.. and much discussion on whether the necks should be wider ( ie. the 660 neck ) .. and the whole effort to maximize the neck width by cutting new nuts/string slots.

Since the guitars have been made for 60 years.. why doesn't RIC do this.. right from the get go??
.. doesn't seem like the narrowness and string cram is something people PREFER.. but something they tolerate.. or deal with.. With all the experience they have.. and since products should evolve.. seems odd to me..

.. but: granted-- I'm new at this game... don't mean to be disrespectful to the RIC legacy!~

Will keep the thread posted on my lil 'ol 620/12 nut/setup issues !

[teb]

I can't speak for JH and the folks at Rickenbacker, but here is my take on the subject. Yes, there are big-handed folks (like me) who have serious problems playing most Rickenbacker twelves - and it's a mechanical problem, not just a matter of needing more practice. This is pretty evident with the drastic and nearly instant increases in the quality of the music you put out after having some of these mods done. On the other hand, there seem to be plenty of people who don't have this problem (enough to insure that most of the production is sold well before the guitars even get built). When your boat is sailing along nicely at full speed and under control, there isn't much reason to start messing with it. Perhaps if sales were slow it would be a different story with more effort devoted to new and different products to increase business, but that doesn't look like it's likely to happen any time soon. What most of us want, more than anything else, is for Rickenbacker to keep making Rickenbackers - not imported copies of their own guitars and not a bunch of crazy stuff like Gibson is currently making to try to prop up a failing company, while ignoring much of what got them respect in the first place. If this means that Rickenbacker may never build me the perfect twelve for my needs, that's OK. I have no problems with having one modified to do what I need it to do.

As for the guitars themselves, I've had a whole bunch of twelves over the past 40 years, both acoustic and electric (Framus, Guild, Martin, Takamine, Takamine, Martin, Rickenbacker, Rickenbacker, Rickenbacker, Rickenbacker - not bad for a bass player huh?) with nut widths as narrow as a stock 360/12 and as wide as 2" on the Takamines. It would seem that (assuming that the action is good) the best, fastest neck for your particular hands and fingers is the narrowest one that you can get away with and play cleanly. This includes being able to play your E, Em, A, and Am chords with only one or two fingers, so that your other fingers are free to wander around, hammering other notes and making passages and chord transitions more interesting, or being able to add the first string, 5th fret A note to a D chord when desired. The question then becomes "How wide can I make the nut/fingerboard width for comfortable playing and still maintain the ability to do these things with my particular hands and fingers?" The answer is likely to be different for each player, and the solution may involve some custom work that no factory can provide.

For some people, the 660/12 iwith its wider neck is the answer. I had one and just never warmed up to it. I'm used to the big, hollow bodies and tighter string pairs and though the 660 sounded superb, I decided to stick with the 300 series twelves. In any case, there is so much more that you can do with these guitars than just strumming them once you have them set up to give you adequate playing room but maintain as much neck/nut narrowness and speed as possible. Here is an old, multi-tracked office demo that I did for fun. It starts with a 370/12 track that's fingerpicked and string-tapped all the way through and then has a more convertional, flat-picked twelve track near the end. The "twang" guitar in the middle is a Yamaha Silent Guitar and the bass is a Hofner. I wouldn't be able to play either of these twelve-string parts on a stock 370/12. So despite what some of the purists and collectors believe, sometimes a few mods can be a very good thing.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/M ... wayman.mp3

[steverok]

Todd, this song is awesome ! I'm playing it at work, telling people "I KNOW THIS GUY !" Well, not really ... anyway, very smooth and enjoyable.

[scotty]

Todd, You just made my wet and windy Friday night.I throughly enjoyed this.Any chance of you sending me this id love to put this on the Ipod.