Led Zeppelin - Thieves or genius?

[marc61]

My son and I have been debating this all weekend. Zepp is a favorite for both of us. What bothers me most is, I believe it would have enhanced their legacy rather than hurt just to let people be aware of the influence, rather than hide it.

Other than the video linked below, the most damning evidence comes from Jimmy himself in this interview from Guitar World in 1993, where Page basically throws Robert under the bus - "As far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case – but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that – which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing"

[bartyclue]

Well after listening to this I would have to lean towards thieves but with a couple of caveats.

1. Most guitarists i have played with couldnt give a stuff about lyrics. Most of them are more concerned about what they are playing and how many bars they get for their solo. So if plant actually did plagerize, which it seems more than obvious he did, I am not surpised no one else in the group caught on. A lot of these these other artists were old time blues players and not sure how popular they were with the rest of zepplin.

2. The progession for Stairway sure is similair to that other group, so Jimmy may or may not be just as guilty and probably shouldnt "throw plant under the bus".

3. IMHO the songs listed are not the best zepplin tunes. All the best zep tunes (again IMHO) arent used as examples so i think those tunes still display the brilliance of the band.

3. How many songs have you learned that were the identical chord progression to countless other tunes? Someone pointed out to me once that every movie's or TV show's premise or plot that has ever been done was basically a variation on what WM Shakespeare did 400 years ago. I think this probably applies to a lot of popular music as well.

[cassius987]

None of the examples in the video would bother me if they had just cited the original artist. Good grief, that is a huge amount of IP theft. Especially on a lyrical level.

[marc61]

Brian, The problem I have with Page's statements is that they make the theft seem intentional. As if Plant should have known to make the proper changes.It was just soooo blatant.

Not to argue, but not the best songs? Stairway to Heaven is one of the most requested songs for radio airplay of all time. Communication Breakdown is considered by some(including Johnny Ramone) to be the first punk song. There are also songs on Houses of the Holy and Presence that were stolen. Basically, they just never learned their lesson.

Half the Beatles first two albums are covers, most of the Stones first three (I believe) albums are covers. None of that hurt their legacy.

Joshua, Agreed!

[bartyclue]

Brian, The problem I have with Page's statements is that they make the theft seem intentional. As if Plant should have known to make the proper changes.It was just soooo blatant.

Not to argue, but not the best songs? Stairway to Heaven is one of the most requested songs for radio airplay of all time. Communication Breakdown is considered by some(including Johnny Ramone) to be the first punk song. There are also songs on Houses of the Holy and Presence that were stolen. Basically, they just never learned their lesson.

Half the Beatles first two albums are covers, most of the Stones first three (I believe) albums are covers. None of that hurt their legacy.

Joshua, Agreed!

Marc, music like beauty I guess is in the "ear" of the beholder. I never thought Stairway was a great tune compared to so many others in their catalogue. As for CB being the 1st punk song, i thought that distinction belonged to the who and my generation.. but as I stated in my previous post this is just my humble opinion

[marc61]

I humbly agree (re; beauty is in the ear ...)

[Clint]

There are a lot of cases of plagerism in Zep's catolog but most of the examples in that youtube clip aren't them. Memphis Minnie is credited on When the Levy Breaks. Babe I'm Going to Leave You is credited as traditional. Willie Dixon is credited on most of his songs. Stairway to Heaven is similar, but many chord progressions are. I think Dazed and Confused is the most damning, that one is just a straight rip off.

[whojamfan]

Gene Simmons of Kiss once said that amateurs are influenced, pros staright rip off, or something like that.
If yer gonna straight rip somebody off, at least give them the credit for it. So many of those old blues guys spent their whole lives with nothing and had to sit back and watch these young white kids rip them off without due. It would have been really cool if when Zep was big, they would have these guys open up for them and introduce them as to what influenced them in the first place. All just decadent take take take in my book.

[robbo63]

Before I watched the video, I was going to say something flip like "all art is theft."

After watching the video, I have a completely different opinion of Led Zeppelin. As others have mentioned, borrowing riffs, ideas, and themes in songwriting has been a time-honored practice, especially in the blues, but it something quite different, and quite indefensible IMO to completely lift someone else's work, attribute it to yourself or your group in the credits and get royalties for it!

[winston]

Thanks to the "communication age" Plant and Page have become exposed and their practise of "borrowing" songs in whole or in part has become indefensible.

If they had only acknowledged their source from the start, their reputation would not have been tarnished. As we all know there are so few arrangements that are truly original, but this goes beyond what is acceptable artistic licence.

[antipodean]

I think they were genius thieves... its has taken 40-odd years to catch them!

[just_bassics]

I think they were genius thieves... its has taken 40-odd years to catch them!

Not really. This was well documented by Guitar World Magazine in the mid 1980's. Still have the issue somewhere...

Back in Orlando, I was good friends with a R&B keyboard player who was very close to Willie Dixon. He told me that any mention of Led Zeppelin or Jimmy Page would send the man into a rage, but also felt that too much time had passed to do anything about it.

[wints]

A brilliant both...

[marc61]

There are a lot of cases of plagerism in Zep's catolog but most of the examples in that youtube clip aren't them. Memphis Minnie is credited on When the Levy Breaks. Babe I'm Going to Leave You is credited as traditional. Willie Dixon is credited on most of his songs. Stairway to Heaven is similar, but many chord progressions are. I think Dazed and Confused is the most damning, that one is just a straight rip off.

Original pressings credit Led Zepp members. It was only after they were caught that the credits changed.

[marc61]

I think they were genius thieves... its has taken 40-odd years to catch them!

Not really. This was well documented by Guitar World Magazine in the mid 1980's. Still have the issue somewhere...

Back in Orlando, I was good friends with a R&B keyboard player who was very close to Willie Dixon. He told me that any mention of Led Zeppelin or Jimmy Page would send the man into a rage, but also felt that too much time had passed to do anything about it.

My quote from above is from Guitar World 1993

While they originally ripped Willie off, they definitely ended up putting his name out into the mainstream, and he was compensated for it. I can understand his anger however.