20 Fret 330/12??

[egosheep]

I was looking at Johnny Marr's 330/12FG, and I started counting the frets:



I only count 8 frets past the 12th. Am I crazy, or is this a 20-fret guitar?

[egosheep]

So am I seeing things? If there are 20 frets, is that an anomaly?

[paologregorio]

It's a bound neck 330. Looking at the space between the frets onthe guitar, I think the fretboard's been replaced and the guitar refretted at an increaed scale of 25" from the original 24.75.

I think the 21st fret is at the binding at the edge. I think the fretboard's been replaced and the scale increased, with the result that the 21st fret is at the binding edge. Larry Davis increased the scale to 25" on my Big Red, with the result that the 24th fret is at the edge of the fretboard and practically indistinguishable from the back edge of the fretboard-same type of effect.

[egosheep]

It's a bound neck 330. Looking at the space between the frets onthe guitar, I think the fretboard's been replaced and the guitar refretted at an increaed scale of 25" from the original 24.75.

I think the 21st fret is at the binding at the edge. I think the fretboard's been replaced and the scale increased, with the result that the 21st fret is at the binding edge. Larry Davis increased the scale to 25" on my Big Red, with the result that the 24th fret is at the edge of the fretboard and practically indistinguishable from the back edge of the fretboard-same type of effect.

Thanks Paul, you're totally right. I didn't notice the binding before!

I'm guessing RIC never made a 330/12 with binding, so it was definitely modified at some point? Can you post a photo of the fretboard on Big Red?

[paologregorio]

Here you go. My guitar is a 24 fret model, but I believe the effect is the same on a 21 fret model. Neck binding was an available extra cost option from Rick back in the day, but I looked at a couple of photos of other 21 fret 330s and the fret spacing looks closer to my eye than the spacing on Marr's, which is why I suggested my explanation. These photos show a similar effect-the last fret right at the edge of the neck visually merging with the binding. Note that my frets are significantly larger than those on Marr's guitar because mine has thicker/lartger than standard "medium tall" frets, whilst the frets on 'Marr's guitar look to be vintage style fretwire. Notice tto in the second, angled photo, the light reflection catches what appears to be the lacquer at the edge of the fretboard coming up to meet a fret, the way it does with all of the clearly visible frets.

[scotty]

I never get enough of Big Red got to love the beast.

[paologregorio]

I never get enough of Big Red got to love the beast.

Thanks. Larry Davis did an amazing job. It's my go to guitar. At Thursday night's rehearsal I couldn'thelp thinking what a fantastic guitar it is. I lucked out with the extraordinarily light and resonant block of wood RIC used when they made the guitar, and Larry's upgrades/mods just made it all the better. If you have the means, I highly recommend having a Rick modded in like fashion.

Any opinions on my hypothesis about Marr's 330?

I wonder if he borrowed that 330, or sold it; it does not appear to be in his current collection (nor do some of his Smiths era LPs-though he has others now, nor the black Strat he had on the cover of GP mag[1990]), and thats the only footage/stills I can find of him playing that particular Rick: http://johnny-marr.com/guitarchestrajoh ... ymarr.html

[egosheep]

Any opinions on my hypothesis about Marr's 330?

I wonder if he borrowed that 330, or sold it; it does not appear to be in his current collection (nor do some of his Smiths era LPs-though he has others now, nor the black Strat he had on the cover of GP mag[1990]), and thats the only footage/stills I can find of him playing that particular Rick: http://johnny-marr.com/guitarchestrajoh ... ymarr.html

I think your theory is great! After looking at Big Red, I'm not sure if he has a final fret like you do, or if that's just the bound edge of the fretboard. I'm gonna go back and take some more screen caps to try to get a clearer shot. I wasn't even thinking about the frets when I took these. But the fret is probably there... wouldn't make sense to replace the fingerboard with a 20-fret one. Any thoughts on the era of this one? I was thinking mid to late 70's, but now I don't know. From the pickup placement, was it a 21 fret model originally or was it a 24?

I'm doing research now for a big update to the gear section at Smiths On Guitar. I think Johnny still has the vast majority of his Smiths guitars, but I don't know if he has this one. He has said he owns about 100 guitars total, so the ones on his site are just the ones he has currently photographed and put up. He's a serious guitar geek, it would kind of shock me if he didn't keep most axes he used live or on Smiths records. He did give one of his three 355/12's to Bernard Butler... he had one in each availiable color: cherry, black and sunburst. BB got the sunburst one.

As far as LP's, he had four main ones. First was his 85 LP standard in Wine Red to which he added a bigsby. Then he got a '72 LP custom which was his main guitar for a lot of 1985. At some point he got a '59, which he used on recording strangeways but I haven't seen it live. In 1986 he's added another LP, a flamed out burst, but definitely NOT his '59. But in interviews he has said he's using a 1959 LP for a lot of live stuff. So... either there's just no video of him using the 59(distinct possibility, only about 10% of their shows were filmed), or he had two '59 LP's.

For that Ric, I don't think he borrowed it. He bought a lot of guitars when he was with the Smiths, and that one was used on I think three TV spots and one live show that I know of, but it stayed on the stand the whole show as an unused backup guitar. There is at least one Ric that no one has ever photographed, that's his 360/12NS MG which supposedly belonged to Roger McGuinn, then to Phil Manzanera, then to Johnny. He also said in interviews at the time that he owned a 60's 330MG, which also has never been seen.

[paologregorio]

It looks like an original 21 fretter to me from the p/up location and guards. Odd model. IIRC, there used to be viewable video online of this particular live performance with this guitar, but I can't find it anywhere now.

[egosheep]

I agree with you about the pickguard, it looks like a long 21 fret one.

Best shot of it is at 1:03:


It was also used here:


And here's the one time I've seen it live, it's on a stand to the left of Johnny's amp.