Lined Fretless Bass Guitars

[aceonbass]

Well...I say to each his own. This lined versus unlined debate just serves to draw a line, dividing people into two camps where criticism of one side by the other becomes inevitable....and pointless.

[rickenbrother]

Dane, the subject was not started to have criticisms of people who like or play lined fretless basses. You're right, to each his own, but don't make a point of telling others that stating an opinion of preferring to play fretless is an outright criticism of those who do, Especially coming from you, who has lately made a habit of often posting caustic criticisms towards other forum members, your post above seems kind of ironic.
If the thread gets stupid over this, it will get the padlock.

[aceonbass]

Stating an opinion is one thing, but there has been plenty of belittling of lined fretless playing (and therefor the players) here. So much so that Michael Baber called attention to it with his humorous post. If any forum members feel I've made "caustic criticisms" towards them, then they can PM me about it. I've had no such PM's.

[rickenbrother]

Stating an opinion is one thing, but there has been plenty of belittling of lined fretless playing (and therefor the players) here. So much so that Michael Baber called attention to it with his humorous post. If any forum members feel I've made "caustic criticisms" towards them, then they can PM me about it. I've had no such PM's.

Did anyone take offense to Michael's post? No, they let let him be and laughed. Though he added no counterpoint to the discussion, only sarcasm.
Funny that you didn't get PM's about your "caustic criticisms" because I certainly did.

[rickenbrother]

I've unlocked this thread. As long as the posts can be worded to not sound sarcastic or critical of a persons choice to play an unlined or fretless bass, it will stay open.

[cjj]

OK, ya know what I think? I think people who play lined fretless basses are a bunch of......... People who like things different from the unlined players...


In all seriousness, having played fretted basses for 30 odd years before I ever picked up a fretless, I was fairly sure I'd really want the fret lines (yeah, I covered this way back on page 1 of this thread, but hey...). And then, once I got a fretless (sans lines), I found that I didn't miss 'em one tiny bit! OK, I'm nowhere near perfect at always hitting the right note exactly. But for the most part, I'm close enough to make a minor adjustment and slide into the right note, almost undetectably, or maybe even adding to the sound a bit, kind of like a grace note or such.

Yeah, 30 plus years of playing Rick basses likely gives me some sort of muscle memory on where notes should be, but I'm still quite surprised that I don't need the lines. Come to think of it, I don't actually look at the frets either, and if I did these days, it'd probably mess me up anyway.

But hey, if you like lines, more power to ya! It's all about how you sound and making music. Who cares how it looks? Heck, I've had some pretty good times (and made some darned good music) with a stick, a string and an old galvanized washtub... Really!

[aceonbass]

Did the stick have frets and was the string round, or flat wound

[cjj]

No frets (no lines either!). The string was spiral twist hay baling twine, polyethylene I think, orange. Probably Bridon brand...

http://www.bridoncordage.com/baler_us.html
Man, I have no idea how many miles of this stuff I've gone through over the years...

[cassius987]

I played a lined fretless G&L today. Just as I remembered, the lines were pretty much unhelpful unless I awkwardly stared at my fingers. But the side dots did help.

If anyone perceives this as a personal attack they can let me know whatever way they like. I don't think the above statement should be found offensive by anyone rational.

I would never try to stop anyone from playing lined fretless if they had already committed or after hearing my advice went against it when playing something they found in a store, etc. Also, lines do nothing to hurt your playing in my opinion (because they are no help, so you don't have to look at them anyways), so I don't feel like someone with a lined fretless will be worse off.

Also remember, my first two fretless basses had lines. And that is where the bulk of my experience about them comes from. I remember struggling at first in jazz band trying to use those lines and keep up with my sight reading. Epic fail. That's probably when I started quickly glancing at the side dots, although I can't be sure. As much as I could I tried not to look at all.

Since this thread gets strangely tense time and again I'll just put a quick capsule statement about my feelings on the subject:

1. I prefer an unlined fingerboard on fretless basses.
1a. This is because I don't use fretlines when they are available. I use side dots all the time.
1b. I personally think an unlined fingerboard looks nicer, a la the Tony Franklin Precision, Warwick Corvette FLs, and Ric FLs.
2. If you play a lined fretless then... enjoy your bass! I do not care.
2a. I am not "better" than you because I prefer unlined.
2b. I don't lose sleep at night thinking about you playing a lined fretless.

[woodyng]

i found a fretless lined peavey bass i was thinking of buying,and some of the comments here have given me pause,only because i do tend to look at my basse's fb when i play,but i think it is sort of subconscious,i hope i would pay more attention with my ears than my eyes. i have been playing for a long time,but have had next to no experience with either fretless or upright basses,so i would like to have a go at one. (i would love a ric fl,but i think i would opt for a $300 bass to start...)

[bbmusic]

Did anyone take offense to Michael's post? No, they let let him be and laughed. Though he added no counterpoint to the discussion, only sarcasm.

I'm inclined to defend myself a little bit here.

I hoped that my satirical post (unfortunately taken as sarcasm) would shed light on the tone of the discussion, which was set early on in the signature line of one of the initial posters comparing the lines on a fretless bass to training wheels. If that's not a belittling judgment of the skills of those who used a lined fretless, I don't know what is.

That's what I was lampooning in my post. Humor responding to humor.

I thought a laugh might be good for all. The debate seemed to have gone off in a direction out of character for the rickresource forums. I love seeing a good bit of fireglo vs. jetglo snark here and there, for instance -- but only because nobody makes a comment like "truly experienced players find fireglo useless, and will eventually find all that color distracting." Or "A well-trained ear will always prefer the a large headstock to a small one."

We compare instruments all the time. We almost never compare our skills. And this discussion -- at least on a subtextual level -- was the latter from the get-go.

smiley face! (as my wife and I say)

[cassius987]

We compare instruments all the time. We almost never compare our skills. And this discussion -- at least on a subtextual level -- was the latter from the get-go.

I fundamentally disagree. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of preference or lack thereof. I have never participated in any argument like this under the pretense that skill was a determining factor in the choice. I know what works for me and my skills but I have never tried to claim that because I play unlined fretless, or a Ric, or bass guitar instead of guitar, I somehow have more skill. When people presume that's what I think when I explain my preferences I find it really irksome.

I'm not better than Jaco, and he played lines; I don't want to play a bass with lines because I have no need for them (yes, I said it, I have no need for them). And in saying that I am not saying I'm better than Jaco or anyone else who plays a fretless with lines. I've played fretless with lines before and even owned lined fretless basses and gigged them; I know what it's like and it's just not for me. Can't that be taken at face value?

James Jamerson, who could play upright and fretted electric very well, was an admitted wreck on any fretless. And I don't think I'm better than him, either. Playing fretless is not any better than playing fretted, etc. etc. It's like five string versus four. It's about needs and preference, not skill.

The presumption by people that this argument is somehow about the player's skill is the whole reason it's such a powder keg. But the presumption is erroneous.

[iiipopes]

We all come from different places; we're all going different places. We chance to meet on this forum out of a common interest: RIC instruments. I, for one, am very glad of the diversity of models, folks who play them, and the different approaches. I've played bass for over 35 years, guitar a year longer than that, brass two years longer than that, piano for 42 years, and I can't remember a time when I didn't sing. Every time I log on, I still learn something or see something in a different light I want to try. Now, let's get back up on top of the table and appreciate the vivre la difference, or I'll personally ask Joey to shut the thread down again.

Cassius987 is being as open and above board as anybody on this forum, is as open to anything as anybody can be, and it is always a pleasure to discuss topics with him. The same is true about a lot of others on this board. Everyone else needs to lose the defensiveness, lose the bias, and appreciate that it would be a very boring world if it were all one way or the other. If you feel defensive about having or not having lines, then look inside and find out why. Among all my gigs from garage bands to playing in front of 60,000 people at a regional Independence Day fest about 17 years ago, including having played on national PBS TV, I've always played with a fretted instrument, and I am not sure I even have a clue about fretless. So I read this forum. I've only even picked up a fretless only about a handful of times in all my days, and without a year of practice, either with or without lines, I'd be scared $#!+less about performing on one.

I'm even considering purchasing a properly fitted upright double bass for a jazz gig I have, and I'm researching and surfing everything I can about fretless, including here. If I do pull the trigger, it will take me a year before I'm comfortable to perform in public on it. So please keep this topic open and progressive so even this old geezer like me can learn something instead of getting the urge to say, as when my son argues with his cousin: Children! Please!

[bbmusic]

We compare instruments all the time. We almost never compare our skills. And this discussion -- at least on a subtextual level -- was the latter from the get-go.

I fundamentally disagree. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of preference or lack thereof. I have never participated in any argument like this under the pretense that skill was a determining factor in the choice.

I don't recall it being any of your comments that I was referring to, Josh. I just picked up on a general vibe and commented on it in my lighthearted way. It was an intellectual response, not an emotional one, born of amusement rather than defensiveness. If anyone was bothered by it, or if it somehow contributed to the thread being locked for a while, then I missed my mark.

Unlike on my lined fretless, where I ALWAYS hit my mark.

[rickenbrother]

Mike, your post had nothing to do with getting the thread locked.