Peter Buck's Alternate Stringing

[Folkie]

This thread deals with a very esoteric question that will only interest early R.E.M. gearheads. How did Peter Buck string his Jetglo 360/12? My best guess is that the Rick was strung factory stock, except that he removed the octave from the D-pair to use the low D as a drone on songs like "7 Chinese Bros." and "Green Grow the Rushes," and that he replaced the octave on the G-pair with a unison string (you can hear this on both those songs and also on "Pretty Persuasion," to name a few.) This is not as unorthodox as it sounds: for years, 12-string players have been experimenting with alternate stringings, and it's not uncommon for players to put a unison on the G. I've seen used Ricks strung that way, and once a guitar tech inadvertently put a unison string on my 330/12's G-pair during a routine stringing. The sound was totally different.

I've played all the early 12-string songs over and over, and they just don't sound right with the G-octave in place. And Peter said in one interview that the main guitar riff to "7 Chinese Bros." was played on the same 12-string as that jangly chorus. If I'm mistaken, I hope others will chime in and correct me. One of the great things about this forum as that it gives us an excuse to talk about really esoteric stuff!

Robert

[johnhall]

I've just copied this message over to Peter's long time guitar tech; let's see what he says.

Personally, I've never noticed anything different than standard stringing when his guitars have been here for service but maybe I wasn't paying attention to this.

[Folkie]

I suppose it's possible that my ears are deceiving me or that Peter overdubbed several tracks from different guitars. I'll be interested to hear what his trusted tech has to say.

Robert

[kennyhowes]

The main riff on 7 Chinese Bros. is a six-string, at least on the intro. Probably doubled up (w/a 12 str) on the lick just before the chorus.

Our own Mitch Easter could possibly tell us more than Dewitt (Peter's tech) - Mitch was probably there when they recorded it. Mitch?

[Folkie]

Yes, but doesn't the melody line before each chorus on "Green Grow the Rushes" sound jangly enough to be played on a unison pair? And when you compare the final version of that song with the demo on the deluxe edition of "Fables" (which was done with just a six-string) that melody line on the demo sounds much less bright and chimey. Any thoughts?

Robert

[kennyhowes]

Yes, but doesn't the melody line before each chorus on "Green Grow the Rushes" sound jangly enough to be played on a unison pair? And when you compare the final version of that song with the demo on the deluxe edition of "Fables" (which was done with just a six-string) that melody line on the demo sounds much less bright and chimey. Any thoughts?

Sounds like either a double-tracked guitar or a chorus effect to me, on the regular Fables version. Maybe double-tracked with chorus?

[electrofaro]

The sound scape of early R.E.M. has always fascinated me, as well.
Specially 7 Chinese Bros & the whole of Fables are my long time favourites.

Didn't Peter use Mitch' Fender XII on 'Pretty Persuasion'?
Maybe he used it on the '7 Chinese Bros.' bit as well?

'Green Grow the Rushes' doesn't sound 12-string enough.

Oh, well... instead of posting more questions, let's wait what comes out.

As Robyn Hitchcock once said (about Kimberley Rew?) regarding playing 6-string in unison in the Soft Boys: together we sounded like a 12-string!

[johnhall]

Okay, here's the story directly from Dewitt Burton:

First of all, the 12 string guitar used on those recordings was a Fender 12. As a result, it is strung differently than a Ric. It ran through a Rockman Chrous and Sustainer into an Ampeg Gemini 1 amplifier. The 12 string part was also overdubbed mic'ed at the hand and not plugged in. Also, what folks don't realize is Peter has a completely original technique. Initially self-taught, Peter does not finger pick or flat pick his arpeggiated style. If you've ever been able to notice (and it's hard because of how he holds his hand and usually there is a sleeve in the way) his style is a constant up or down motion with his right hand -- no individual (or duos) of strings are plucked with his right hand. He has a *********** chording technique with his left hand. This method of playing is best described in musical jargon as a "rolled chord".

From Wikipedia: "A rolled chord is a sequence of notes played almost at the same time like strumming a chord on a guitar. They are mostly seen on piano, producing a harp-like effect. When a chord is too large for a pianists hand, the chord is expected to be rolled. An arpeggiated chord can be quite difficult to execute especially if spanning more than two octaves ... A rolled chord "unveils" the notes of the chord rather than stating them all at once, creating expectations or questions in the listener. The expectations can then be satisfied, or broken (surprised.) A rolled chord can also increase the number of notes per second in faster passages, creating a heightened sense of virtuosity or musical complexity."

Peter has since spent the the last 30 years learning a more conventional style of playing. But when the oldies come out, he reverts back to how he played them. When any of our sidemen have been asked to duplicate what Peter did on those older songs they are unable to do so. They have to transpose to a more conventional method and it never sounds "exactly" right.

Was this inquiry from the Ric Resource page? I've been there a couple of times. The people are very nice. I hope this answers any questions and it doesn't bum Ric lovers out too much. Here is picture taken last weekend of Mitch and I and the 12 string in question.

Peter's Rics are all strung factory spec with those giant strings - the only guitars in our arsenal that can remain at this tension. Tune-o-matic bridges always tend to start bending forward. Bolt-on necks do not like them either.

I was surprised to learn it wasn't a RIC. However, Dewitt went on to tell me Peter used his RIC's on every track of the new album coming out in mid-March, with the exception of when he was playing an acoustic guitar.

[jingle_jangle]

He needs a Rick acoustic, of course...

[Folkie]

Thank you, John Hall and Dewitt Burton! You've taught me a great deal not only about Peter's gear, but about his idiosyncratic technique.

I clearly remember that in an interview for one of the guitar magazines, Peter said he "got a great 12-string sound from my Rickenbacker on the chorus to 7 Chinese Bros." I don't remember the exact magazine or issue; I suppose it's possible he was just remembering wrong. It is true that in concert he almost always played "7 Chinese Bros." on a 6-string.

I thought Mitch Easter's Fender Strat XII was just used while they were recording "Chronic Town," "Murmur," and "Reckoning," and that "Fables" was tracked with a Rickenbacker. (Peter can be seen with Rick 360/12 in hand for three songs from the Raleigh 1985 show on YouTube: "Talk About the Passion," "So. Central Rain," and "Good Advices." On all three, you can get a clear view of the 12-string headstock, and the guitar sounds amazing!) And if you listen carefully to the timbre of the octave pairs on "Maps and Legends," "Life and How to Live It" and "Green Grow the Rushes," you'll hear that the low strings are struck first; that's no Fender Strat XII!!!

To Werner and Kenny: I am 100% sure that the final studio version of "Green Grow the Rushes" was played on an electric 12-string (most likely double-tracked). Just listen to that jangle and shimmer! You don't get that from a chorus pedal! Although I suppose a chorus effect may have been used to further accentuate the chime of the octave strings, most likely that Rockman Chorus and Sustainer that Dewitt mentioned.

I learned all of the early R.E.M. songs with a flatpick on an acoustic, and I've never seen a close up of Peter's picking and fretting hands. In the early days Peter did a lot of what I would call circular arpeggios, where he skips strings very rapidly (check out the early versions of "Rockville" on any of the bootlegs circa 1982.)

Anyway, thank you John Hall and Dewitt Burton for giving us an inside look at Peter's gear and technique. I suppose only Joe Boyd knows which 12-string was double-tracked on six of the final songs on "Fables."

Robert

[electrofaro]

Thank you, John Hall and Dewitt Burton! You've taught me a great deal not only about Peter's gear, but about his idiosyncratic technique.

I like to join in - thanks for providing this unique insight!
I don't mind a Fender XII - if it wasn't for that ugly smurf headstock it would be kind of cool!

I thought Mitch Easter's Fender Strat XII was just used while they were recording "Chronic Town," "Murmur," and "Reckoning," and that "Fables" was tracked with a Rickenbacker.

From various magazine interviews and books I got the same impression, Robert.
Maybe Mitch can shed a light on that?

To Werner and Kenny: I am 100% sure that the final studio version of "Green Grow the Rushes" was played on an electric 12-string (most likely double-tracked). Just listen to that jangle and shimmer!

At least one of the guitar tracks is clearly a 6-string, but I get what parts you mean; still not convinced though.

How many pictures from the studio sessions for Fables were published?
Always interesting to see what gear was around.

[electrofaro]

Regarding the new R.E.M. album - the band have the opening track of the album for free download if you join the mailing list over at the band's website!

[Kilaen]

Regarding the new R.E.M. album - the band have the opening track of the album for free download if you join the mailing list over at the band's website!

Thanks Werner!

[analogpackrat]

I always thought I heard more of a slow phaser sound on some of the early-mid 80s REM guitar tracks. It doesn't quite sound right using a chorus to me.

Can't wait for the new album!

[Folkie]

Does anyone know the title of the new album?