Glueburst

[ilan]

What causes Glueburst? Can it be fixed?

'71 on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1971-Rickenbacker-4 ... 600wt_1139

[jingle_jangle]

I remember a similar case a few years back, but I don't recall any kind of consensus on it.

Here's an idea:

Most of this bass looks like brand new maple, odd for a '71 MG, as most have ambered substantially. Perhaps this isn't glue, but rather the old finish, which wasn't completely sanded off before somebody re-finished the bass?

You can sand CV on an older Mapleglo guitar or bass, and once it's been thoroughly scuffed, the difference in color between the old CV and the exposed wood is minimal. However, once a new coat of varnish or lacquer is applied, the contrast between the two is emphasized by the new material, and the difference is shocking...

The seller ignores the issue entirely, and in fact, the bass would be exceptional if not for this "tiny" issue...

[thisismusicinc]

The binding looks very yellow, though. On the body at least.

[jingle_jangle]

...which would further support my theory that the edges of the body, including binding, were not completely sanded.

[gareth]

Don't matter too much to me. I'd just have it painted jetglo anyway.

Heresy I know, but someone has already messed it up. It's how it sounds that matters to me really.

[jingle_jangle]

To describe it as "near mint collector grade", though is hyperbole. So is the opening bid.

[Lost Coyotes]

If I may, I will quote another fantastic Rickenbacker builder/finisher/repairman (other than Paul) I know who has experience in this, Dale Fortune. Dale had sent this email to me as he was fixing my 1972 4001MG with this exact problem. I was really curious as to how this staining could happen. I think this sums it up:

"Yes we did make glue from acetone and small pieces of binding, mixed in a coffee can with no lid, a piece of cardboard or wood was laid over the top opening when it was not being used, but when we would come to work the next morning sometimes the acetone had evaporated leaving the mixture semi hard, so more acetone was put in the coffee can with the binding pieces and left to soften. When this mixture was a paste like substance we would use a small brush to apply it to the binding and slots, the brush was the kind used for applying solder acid. This was the 60s and 70s method. While we waited for the mixture to soften we would take the B/W checkered and white binding and use straight acetone with a brush to apply the binding. This really softened the binding and made it adhere easily. We'd also coat the binding slots with straight acetone on a brush to help the binding adhere better, this caused a penetration of the dye that was in the checkered binding to leach into the grain of the Maple. This is why you don't see this on every Mapleglo Rick because 10 or 15 minutes after we started work in the morning, the acetone binding mixture was soft enough to use with a brush and we didn't use straight acetone once it had softened enough to use it with a brush. This mixture did not penetrate like the straight acetone did. I have seen other Ricks with this same leaching problem over the years of my working on Rickenbacker instruments.
I hope this clears up any confusion with this problem... Dale Fortune"

[jingle_jangle]

Yes, I've read the same account, back a few years ago when this topic came up before.

It didn't ring true then, so I performed some experiments and found it implausible, if not downright impossible, to get this result using the methods and materials described: A brown stain around the edges of very dense maple, from dissolving a black and white material with acetone. Ain't gonna happen.

This bass probably won't accept a MG refinish, but a FG or MB burst would probably work out just fine, in addition to it being good for a solid color refin as well. I'd hesitate to do white or light pastels, however, without spraying a test area to determine if there will be any bleed-through of the stain.

[Lost Coyotes]

Yes, I've read the same account, back a few years ago when this topic came up before.

It didn't ring true then, so I performed some experiments and found it implausible, if not downright impossible, to get this result using the methods and materials described: A brown stain around the edges of very dense maple, from dissolving a black and white material with acetone. Ain't gonna happen.

This bass probably won't accept a MG refinish, but a FG or MB burst would probably work out just fine, in addition to it being good for a solid color refin as well. I'd hesitate to do white or light pastels, however, without spraying a test area to determine if there will be any bleed-through of the stain.

Paul,
You are an expert on finishes, and so is Dale. I have seen his work in person, and I have seen your work, though only pictures, and everything I have seen is absolutely top-notch. The only difference that is clear to me, is that he worked at Rickenbacker during the years these oddities were made. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion... Dale's answer is NOT an opinion - but a fact - what he knows to be true from experience. In your tests, did you allow 35 years or more for the result to manifest itself?
I think I am open minded in most every topic, and can always hear new or alternative ideas or explanations. I cannot explain everything, and have not tried to do that...especially regarding finishes. Like most of us here, I rely on experts such as yourself and others, depending on the topic at hand for answers to questions outside my own expertise.
Frankly I am having a hard time trying to understand why he would make that up or just say it for the sake of saying it.
God Bless America.

[jingle_jangle]

I'm recounting my own experiences in duplicating this claim, which I attempted when Dale's description didn't make sense to me. Dale and I both have experience in attaching purfling and binding to guitar and bass bodies, using exactly the same materials and techniques. The fact that he did it on Electro's premises and I did it on mine is entirely irrelevant.

As you correctly observe, the staining (if this is what, in fact, it is) took decades to become evident. So, anything said about the true cause of this staining by either Dale or myself is conjecture (or if you prefer, guesswork). Conjecture is not fact; it's opinion. If his opinion is that the method they used caused this staining, of course he is entitled to it. You're entitled to believe whoever or whatever you wish.

This is an informational thread. Arguing for or against opinions, no matter how "expert", contributes nothing to the flow of information. In fact, it impedes the flow by adding a risk of participants taking sides and getting personal and off-topic.

I don't wish, therefore, to speculate on what motivation Dale may have had by stating his opinion, except to say that both Dale and I enjoy attempting to solve puzzles like this.

[jingle_jangle]

I have given this "Glueburst" topic some thought and believe further clarification is required.

First off, GREAT title!

Two techs familiar with Rick materials and processes (myself and Dale Fortune) have given our views on what could have caused this anomaly.

Why only basses? is my first question.

How many are affected? is my second.

I've seen, at three different times some years apart, basses with this affliction. At most this would total three separate instruments, at least, it's the same instrument appearing three different times. I don't have photos to compare. Still, only three instruments out of a run of thousands built using the same materials and methods, is a mighty small sample.

Without some sort of non-destructive scientific testing of the instruments concerned, we'll probably never know the true cause, nor will we know exactly when in their lifespans the damage occurred. That's where I want to leave it, and I locked the thread to prevent drift into what was becoming a "he said VS he said" discussion, which becomes exclusionary and non-productive.