Learning Intonation

[Low End Lover]

Hey Folks,

As many of you on this forum know, I recently got a 2008 4003FL. I haven't gotten a chance to strart working with it until this past couple of weeks. I am learning to intonate, I am playing chromatically on all 4 strings up to the 5th position (fret). I use a tuner as a reference point. I am trying to really work on using my ears as my guide (and not the tuner). Oftentimes, I will think I have a note nailed only to look at the tuner and realize I am a bit flat or sharp, but it sounds so close to when I am "in tune" (according to the tuner), I can't really tell the difference and I have been playing music for 15 years and my wife 25 years and she says she can't really tell either. My question is, is there any need in trying to be "perfect" (whatever that is) as I learn intonation or should I let my ears be my guide and accept "close enough" if it sounds good?
Thanks for any help I can get and feel free to ask any follow-up questions of me.

Thanks again,

LEL (Jason)

BTW, I have made sure my bass is set up properly and the the bass intonation is good the length of the string. I know,according to some, for a fretless this isn't as critical, but I think it is worth getting set right.

[FretlessOnly]

A couple of thoughts that I've observed:

At quarter note = 200+ the precision of each note becomes a bit less important.
If one has a good ear and it sounds intonated, then it probably is intonated well enough. Someone else will always have a better ear, though.
Perhaps a better way to learn intonation is to play diatonic scales and common intervals that provide the ear with a better foundation. Chromatic notes don't necessarily offer enough tonal differentiation to really hear melody, which is a good way to perceive intonation. You can work in the chromatic notes later.

[Low End Lover]

Thank you. That is good advice. I think I was so focused on getting my fingers in the right place, that I forgot that how it all sounds together is what matters. I will pick out some good common intervals and scales and let that lead me. Thanks for the broader perspective reminder.

LEL (Jason)

[jps]

Playing to recorded or live (if the musicians can put up with your playing ) music helps, too, especially if you are just listening and trying to avoid looking at the fingerboard, so you can hear your intonation relative to the music you are playing to.

[FretlessOnly]

Jeff makes a great point also. A related technique I use is to get my Roland D-50 keyboard to set up a drone chord. I use the sustain pedal by putting a chair leg on it and then key a chord (1,3,5 only) over two octaves. Then I'll just play over it for 5-10 minutes. Not only does this help intonation, but it also allows you to hear all of the possible intervals and train your ear to recognize them. If you don't have that capability, use the radio or a song in relatively constant key (e.g., Tomorrow Never Knows). The issue with recordings or the radio is that many bands don't use A = 440 Hz, so you've got to retune more times than you'll care to.

[iiipopes]

Practice, practice, practice. As I'm considering getting into upright to augment bass guitar and tuba, I'm finding my years of classical training helpful as I zero in on pitch and fingerboard navigation. It's like anything else: you spend a lot of time initially on mechanics, then some patterns and muscle memory develops so the hand starts going where it is supposed to most of the time, then as you start playing songs and listening to the rest of the guys to blend, a point comes where the leap from internalization to expression occurs and you're off and running.

[songdog]

The tuner will tell you if the note is mathematically perfect. Your ears will tell you whether the note harmonizes with the rest of the music.

Which do you trust the most?

[hieronymous]

The only thing I would add is to record yourself, either solo or playing along with something. You can then critique yourself later, as well as be able to gauge improvement.

[clementc3]

The tuner will tell you if the note is mathematically perfect. Your ears will tell you whether the note harmonizes with the rest of the music.

Which do you trust the most?

And you should keep in mind that a "mathematically perfect" electronic tuner is actually slightly out of tune!

An electronic tuner and the notes of a fretted instrument and keyboard are set up for "twelve-tone equal temperament" in which every note sounds "pretty good" regardless of the key/chord you are in but it also means that all non-octave intervals (thirds, fourths, fifths, etc.) are going to be less than perfect. You can probably tweak the temperament of your electronic tuner but there is no temperament that is "in tune" for every note! Musicians struggled with this challenge for centuries (there is a temperament named for Pythagoras which is documented in Babylonian artifacts, and 20th century composers are still fooling around with it).

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_tuning.

One of the beauties of a fretless instrument is that now you can always play "perfect" intervals or perfectly in tune for the context of the note. However, your fretted fellow musicians (and the keyboard players) will still always be slightly out of tune because they are limited by their physical instruments!

I used to play the violin; however, when I picked my violin up a few years ago (after a decades-long layoff) I discovered that the notes had moved - they were no longer where my fingers "remembered" they were! I wasn't ready to undertake the "target practice" to relearn where the notes are, so my violin went back into the case. IF I were to get back into violin (and this remains highly unlikely) I would use a tuner only to tune up the "A" string and the rest would be by ear.

It might be different for a bass, though.

[Low End Lover]

Once again, thanks for all the thoughtful posts. I can now relax and just enjoy playing my fretless and not focus on some elusive concept of perfection.

Good stuff!,

LEL (Jason)

[jps]

Okay, so now it's time for Lesson 1:

[bluegrassmoker]

intonation is a difficult beast if you really want to be in tune use a strobe tuner that alwasy helps my ear just with the octaves of the instrument and the fiths..

i dont believe in perfect pitch some people just like being right all the time ....; )

[iiipopes]

And remember most of all, it is important, when getting frustrated, to keep your temper!

[hieronymous]

And remember most of all, it is important, when getting frustrated, to keep your temper!

That one took me a while - I just got it!

[rickenbrother]

Harry, when I met you, you seemed like such a peaceful, happy soul!